Ep. 3: “It better be a gateway apology,” breaking down the research on apologies and technology - Pashyn + Wendy Santos
Below you will find the show notes for “Episode 3” of the Communification Podcast.
Tap the down arrow below to download, and tap “play” to tune in. Mahalo for listening! Welcome to the ‘ohana!
After this discussion, I’m convinced Pashyn and Wendy Santos are the poster children for how to give an effective apology - and work through those messy moments in life. They are the first to admit that it’s still a work in progress, but they have put so much work into their relationship and their communication - it’s inspiring. Today’s episode is our version of a fancy book club - but with podcasts. We listened to “Episode 2: Before you apologize, listen to this podcast” - and now it’s time to break it down. You will laugh, you will relate, and hopefully this discussion helps the lessons we learned in episode 2 to really sink in. Research does show that repetition, humor, and connecting with the receiver helps you to learn and remember the content. That is my hope for you!
Main takeaways
Digital apologies are okay, but it better be a “gateway apology.”
Tone is important. That’s hard to do digitally.
“Stop words” like “but,” “if,” and “so” erases the sincerity of the apology.
Pashyn feels like some people use “I’m sorry” as a tool. Wendy says “I’m sorry” can be overused.
Friends come in waves into Pashyn’s bay. Some flow in and some flow out. Sometimes she doesn’t even need an apology. The closure lies in knowing that what’s happening is what’s best for everyone.
Wendy feels like everyone deserves an opportunity to apologize and make things right. Considering the receivers feelings is important to her. This is backed by communication research. Pashyn and Wendy practice this in their marriage.
Pashyn and Wendy use their challenging moments as teaching moments for their hanai keiki.
Parents should be open to apologizing to their children.
For an apology to be effective, the receiver needs to forgive and not hold on to the negative feelings surrounding the transgression.
Our exes need help. 😂
Time codes
[00:05:32] RE-CAP OF WHAT WE LEARNED IN EPISODE 2
[00:06:43] LISTENER QUESTION FROM AMBER STONE IN KANEOHE, O’AHU
[00:08:08] IT BETTER BE A “GATEWAY” APOLOGY
[00:08:51] IT DEPENDS ON THE TONE OF THE APOLOGY
[00:09:15] USING “STOP WORDS” IS UNACCEPTABLE
[00:10:26] PEOPLE USE “I’M SORRY” AS A TOOL
[00:11:43] RECAP OF DR. HUBBARD’S STUDY ON APOLOGIZING EARLIER OR LATER IN A CONVERSATION
[00:13:38] SOMETIMES YOU JUST HAVE TO LET PEOPLE GO
[00:14:21] MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH LETTING GO
[00:17:28] A SINCERE APOLOGY TAKES INTO CONSIDERATION WHAT THE RECEIVERS NEEDS ARE TOO
WENDY AND PASHYN’S PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH THIS IN THEIR MARRIAGE
[00:18:51] CHILDREN, PARENTING, AND HOW WE CAN BE BETTER FOR EACH OTHER
[00:24:49] PASHYN’S PET PEEVE – ADULTS SHOULD BE ABLE TO APOLOGIZE TO CHILDREN
[00:26:54] SOME RESEARCH-BASED STRATEGIES DR. HUBBARD TAUGHT US
[00:29:11] TIME IS IMPORTANT, AND DON’T HOLD ON TO THAT GRUDGE
[00:29:41] “WHEN YOU KNOW BETTER, DO BETTER” – GIVING OUR PARENTS GENERATION GRACE
[00:31:37] PUTTING OUR EXES ON BLAST
[00:33:08] USING EMOJIS AND WORDS TO DESCRIBE OUR NONVERBAL BEHAVIOR
[00:36:43] WENDY AND PASHYN’S PERSONAL DEVELOPMENT RECOMMENDATIONS
Pashyn Santos bio
Pashyn Santos a Content Creator and Entertainer. A proud Kanaka. Lover of coffee, good stories and shared smiles. Working on sharing her passions with the world through her published keiki book and online channels. @pashyn on everything.
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Wendy Santos bio
Wendy Santos a social media personality, author, proud tech nerd and manager to Pashyn. A native Hawaiian who draws on her heritage to empower her community through technology, sharing her story with motivational speeches, poetry and connections. Knowing where she came from is an essential to her journey. Moving thorugh life with kindess, intention, and diligence.
Episode 3:
”It better be a gateway apology,” breaking down the research on apologies and technology
Malika:
Hi ladies. It's so good to see you. I truly value your time. So thank you so much for spending time with me.
Pashyn:
Thank you. Thank you for having us. We love you, and we're so appreciative that you have us on.
Malika:
Thank you so much. I love you too. All right. So let's just get right into it. First impressions of the knowledge that Dr. Hubbard dropped on us.
Wendy:
We know we're opposite, complete opposite. And that was our initial reaction and what we were like, oh my gosh, that's you? Oh, that's you? And it was super cool to talk about the dynamic of it too.
Pashyn:
Especially because for me, I like to collect data. And take all of that data and then combine it with emotion at the end to see what's the best way to attack the situation.
Wendy:
Opposite from me. I'm emotional and I collected data along the way. So she turns her emotion off until she gets all the data collected. And then the emotion turns back on.
RE-CAP OF WHAT WE LEARNED IN EPISODE 2
Malika:
That is so interesting because it actually goes in line with the research that we should know our audience know our partners. So before we get into the nitty gritty, I'm going to first give a little foundation for those listeners that may not have listened to episode two, or maybe they need a little refresher.
So what Dr. Hubbard explained is what an apology was, what the goal of an apology is, she was saying that we often think of the words, “I'm sorry.” Of course, but there are so many other elements to an apology, like offering assistance and showing that you've learned from your mistakes and that you're not going to do that bad thing, whatever it was, again, and we do this to help repair whatever rupture or transgression that occurred.
And I really liked that analogy that she used. It felt a little bit graphic. . . the wound is either fresh or it's crusty and we're trying to bandage it with the apology. And maybe we've tried the same bandage before. Maybe we need to wrap it a little differently this time.
And the two main takeaways were to put yourself in other people's shoes and that went apologizing using technology. It's always a good idea to follow up with some kind of in person interaction. So I thought to kick off our discussion, we should listen to our listener question. Is that okay? All right, let's do it. So this one is from Amber Stone in Kaneohe on the island of, Oahu.
LISTENER QUESTION FROM AMBER STONE IN KANEOHE, O’AHU
USING “STOP WORDS” AND THE SINCERITY OF AN APOLOGY
Amber Stone:
Hey Malika, Wendy and passion. Thanks for having me on the podcast. So my question is, have you ever had someone apologize for something big using technology? And did you feel like it was sincere. Or that it was enough to help repair the relationship. I know that I had an instance where a friend and I got into a bit of a, let's say, misunderstanding.
And in the end she did send me a text message. That was a sorry, BUT blah, blah, blah. And first of all, I feel like the, sorry, should never be followed with a “but” cause it gets rid of the sorry, but anyway, that was supposed to be the end of it. But to me, I still felt like it was really awkward seeing that person in person and I didn't really feel closure. So what are your thoughts on that?
IT BETTER BE A “GATEWAY” APOLOGY
Pashyn:
Wendy and I have probably completely different thoughts on that. First of all. I probably blocked you from everything. So you can't apologize to me through technology. You also had one shot at our relationship.
Second of all, it's hard for me to receive an apology through any type of technology. We grew up in a physical world. I spoke English, Pigeon, Hawaiian, whatever language… and I get it nowadays we're growing up in a techie world and they're speaking digital. And so people like digital apologies.
It's okay to have digital apologies, but it better be a gateway apology. What is it called when you like do a pre-party before you go out?
Wendy:
Pre-apology?
Pashyn:
Yeah. Yeah. It better be one of those.
IT DEPENDS ON THE TONE OF THE APOLOGY
Wendy:
I think that's the only reason why a digital apology would be okay if it is a follow up, that's going to happen afterwards. And it depends on the verbiage that's being used.
Pashyn:
It depends on the verbiage because tones can be taken differently when you're reading too like nowadays, if you don't put haha or LOL at the end of a sentence, people can read it in a tone that you completely didn't mean. I have to put “do you want anything from the store? LOL” or else somebody could read it… “Do you want anything from the store!” (yelling) That's not what I meant, but that's why it's so hard to apologize, especially through texts. And I get that some people can't articulate themselves in person right away, but I think that's the rawness of it and what makes it vulnerable because apologies, should be vulnerable.It's so great to have an in-person apology
USING “STOP WORDS” IS UNACCEPTABLE
Wendy:
I absolutely agree with the verbiage because the one thing she shared was the word, "but" using stop words, “but” “if” “so”…
Pashyn:
oh, I didn't know that was called "stop words."
Wendy:
But if you use those kinds of words in an apology, even in person, regardless, you just erased your apology by using a stop word, because you're making an excuse. And so whether it's in person or not, maybe in text message or digitally, it's a lot easier to take in, but if you're having a conversation face to face, you might miss it. And so I think there's value to both sides with an expectation of a follow up.
Malika:
There was a lot there. Okay. So you talked about the tone of the message. So we'll get to that a little bit later, but also this, "but" right? So why is it that the "but" bothers us… and what Dr. Hubbard was talking about is that an apology needs to be sincere so when someone says, "but" we instantly have our flags go up. “Okay, wait a second. Do you actually mean what you're saying right now?”
And the other thing that kind of popped up for me from what Dr. Hubbard taught us was how she was saying that some people say, sorry, just to get it over. And to move on. What are your thoughts on that?
PEOPLE USE “I’M SORRY” AS A TOOL
Pashyn:
I feel like people use, sorry, as a tool and not as an actual apology and that's where it can, you can be on a tight rope with that because people will take advantage of emotions.
We see it all the time. Marketing takes advantage of emotions. You just have to follow your gut and know what is sincere and what isn't. And a lot of times you can tell what is sincere in-person apology.
Wendy:
Yeah. And I think that speaks to tone when you are talking about it. But I also do think that the use of the word is one thing it could be over used. The actions that connect to the words is the single important thing showing that you are. I'm just going to showcase that through my actions, through my support or through how I'm approaching it.
Pashyn:
Yeah. So and it has to be plural, like not just one thing, it's the little things that add up over time consistently and persistently. We don't become friends because of one single action. We trust each other over time. And so being able to regain that trust, because if you're apologizing to me then, something went down then already, I'm looking at you different and you lost a little bit of that relationship. You lost a little bit of that trust.
RECAP OF DR. HUBBARD’S STUDY ON APOLOGIZING EARLIER OR LATER IN A CONVERSATION
Malika:
Yes, absolutely. And the sincerity side of it, right? Dr. Hubbard study about the couples that had habitual conflicts and then they had to talk it through and the blame worthy the person. So the person that was most seen, perceived to be, to blame either apologized earlier or later, and that apologizing later was seen as more sincere. So that kind of. Speaks to that, to those other elements that are a part of an apology. That, of course it's normal to be like she said, I bumped into you, I say, sorry. Right away. But if it's something big, that is an apology meant to repair a relationship. You need to talk it out, that complex situation.
So the more time you probably need to understand why that thing you did was so hurtful to someone. And I guess this is just my gut instinct. But I would think that just the act of listening, listening to someone, explain why the relationship needs repair basically probably signals sincerity. I'm here, I'm present. I care. And it would be interesting to see what happens to the perception of sincerity of that apology.
If the person that was to blame, if that person who is supposed to be listening is interrupting. I don't know. I feel like this is another study that should be done because that person who is interrupting is asking insightful questions that the intention of the question is to understand, right?
The other person's viewpoint more that maybe that would be helpful. But if the person is doing what Amber was saying, what you guys were talking about, the buts and the stop words is using those. Instead that I would think that would probably backfire. Even if you apologize later again, just my personal thoughts.
SOMETIMES, YOU JUST HAVE TO LET PEOPLE GO
Pashyn:
Totally. I remember her saying that it didn't feel like closure. Some people might disagree with my thoughts on this, but this is where I let people go, because I think of it as friendships, they come and go. I've had so many friends over time. They come in like waves into my bay and some people flow out and never come back and it's totally fine.
And whether that's because they moved far away or they're doing different things, or we just grew in different ways or because our relationships fell through it's okay. And I let it go. And it's not because that relationship wasn't meaningful to me. It was because it was so meaningful to me that I have to let it go. for us both to be okay. And I don't need closure and a sense of an apology. I have closure in a sense that I'm continuing on because we have to be present. And if I let this apology way over my head, then I can't be present here. When I'm thinking about that.
MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH LETTING GO
Malika:
I actually have a personal experience with that. I have a really good friend from my childhood, like high school days and we were inseparable. Traveled together. We did everything together, like this was a woman who would write me cards, those giant cards to get Spencer's. She would write in like normal words on both sides of the card my birthday message. We were so close and something happened to rupture our relationship. And we talked it out so many times just over and over again. And there was this one thing that happened where I basically lost trust. In that relationship. She lied to me. I caught her in a lie. Didn't tell her I caught her in a lie, but I caught her in a lie. And basically my last message was just, I want you to know that I love you and I'll love you forever. I cherish all of the memories we've had together. I just don't think that it's healthy for both of us to continue doing this and best of luck to you. I will love you from afar.
And this person has continued to try to apologize to me. It's been 10 years and I get probably a couple of apologies a year.
She's had other people reach out to me. And what's really interesting also about an apology is in order for you to hear a message, you have to receive it. So if you're using technology to apologize, I have a choice. I can open that message or not. I'm not going to get the gist of the apology if I choose to not let that in for my own mental and emotional health. That went deep.
Pashyn:
Yeah, it's so important. I think that that's one of those things like going back to friends being waves, like there's still a part of the ocean. We're all a part of the ocean, but no try for drown me.
Malika:
Do you have any personal experiences you'd like to share?
Pashyn:
I was actually very sincere when I say that block people out of my life. When I just feel like I don't need the apology. So you would have to make, one YouTube public apology, people are going to be tagging me and I blocked it. So I can't even see it.
Wendy:
And I think I'm the opposite where I don't look or need apologies. But if it's happening, I think I'm more open and vulnerable and caring of someone trying to. Where she can turn it off. And for me, the ones who opened the doors cause everybody deserves an opportunity. The opportunity is not words. The opportunity is actions, but also taking responsibility.
“But" words would be a stop word that would not take responsibility, but if you can take full responsibility and acknowledge and have self-reflection and self-awareness and humility that you made a mistake and you were able to grow from that. And my background of my life, there was a lot of apologies that needed to happen.
A SINCERE APOLOGY TAKES INTO CONSIDERATION WHAT THE RECEIVERS NEEDS ARE TOO
WENDY AND PASHYN’S PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH THIS IN THEIR MARRIAGE
Malika:
I can see how the, your own personal history could impact how you give an apology, how you receive an apology, whether or not you're willing to receive an apology. Thank you for that insight. The other thing that Dr. Hubbard brought up, that was a perspective shift. Cause we've been talking about the center's perspective, but Wendy, I heard from you there that you think about the receiver, you think about how are they feeling?
I'm probably somewhere in the middle. It totally depends on the context, with this instance that I just shared with you, this is over years and we've tried so many times. And so I do feel guilty at times. I hope in the future that this might happen, that there might be some kind of resolve to this issue.
But if you think about the receiver, right? So if this is a relationship that you are actively trying to repair, which is why you are giving this apology, it's thinking about the other person.
So how best do they receive apologies? And I'm hearing this from both of you that you're very different, right? You're saying your opposites. And so the main thing is that you recognize what the other person needs. So do you actually do that with each other, like Pashyn, when you apologize to Wendy, do you use her communication tactics and Wendy, when you apologize to passion, do you use hers?
Wendy:
It depends on the context, right? I will be very transparent. It took time to understand how to work through that. If we have a disagreement, it's more of a, all right, how did this affect you? How can I support you? How can I be better from your perspective? And then me understanding how I can bring that to life. And absolutely, I think that we do use each other's communication styles of giving and receiving. And it depends.
Pashyn:
Feeling it out feeling it out. I think it's just one of those things where she will immediately be like, you hurt me and I will be like, how, tell me and what can I do differently? How could the situation be handled differently? How could you maybe understand how, why I did that?
And I will gather all of that and then. Granted all of this happened, I'm sorry that I did this, and this is the reason why I was wrong. This is the reason why I did it from that specific perspective. And this is how we're never gonna do it again. Or at least be very aware of when it happens again. So we can conquer it early.
Malika:
You guys are the poster children for the perfect apology, by the way…
Pashyn:
This is a long time of work, many books and many self-reflections. And this just happened… What Friday? We had a small little argument and we were just talking about this last night because we're excited to be on your show. We were talking about apologies. And I was like, remember when I was trying to explain something to you? I can't even remember what it was. Wendy kept cutting me off. I was like no. And then I would say, and she was like, yeah. And then she'd cut me off again. And it, she caught me off like four times.
And so finally I was like, yeah, you know what, whatever. And I walked away and she immediately knew that wasn't okay. She was cutting me off. And then I said, by the way, “It was this.” And she was like, “oh.”
I was upset. And she was like, “oh-oh,” and then Buddha came in and she was like, “Hey Wendy, you have to be nice.”
And Wendy started telling Buddha what she did wrong, so it was like immediate self-awareness. And I was like about to yell something really sarcastic from the other room. And immediately I had to be. Why would you do that? You're going to cause a whole another thing does it really need to happen? And we both laughed because I was like, we could have had a really bad day.
Malika:
You guys are so introspective.
Wendy:
Yeah, now… but I think it was me verbalizing and sharing with Buddha, the awareness of what I did wrong and how I could've been better. And that I needed to allow people to talk. Even though, I think I know and Buddha was like, “yeah.”
Pashyn:
Yeah, and because I was aware right away that she knew I didn't need to go in for an extra sting and be like, “yeah,” it was just allowing her to know that's what happened. And I didn't even need to say after that, like that hurt my feelings or like that, that upset me. She knew. If I keep going, that's ego.
Wendy:
So she walked out, she was like, “come here little $hit, give me a hug.” And we both just laughed about it. And I was still able to address that I was wrong. I have to be better.
CHILDREN, PARENTING, AND HOW WE CAN BE BETTER FOR EACH OTHER
Malika:
Okay. So where this brings me is two places. One, that we are all constantly learning and growing, and that once we become aware of these habits and the things that we do, and especially within our interpersonal relationships, right? Those people that we interact with on a daily basis, especially our family, our partners, for example. With my husband, we are working towards that, that we can be aware in the moment. And I know for myself, I will catch myself and immediately just be so disappointed in when I fall back into habitual patterns.
We're getting there. So once we can recognize it, then we can stop and rectify the situation and either apologize right away for that thing that just keeps happening, like interrupting someone, not so much like a big issue that we're talking about where I need to understand the context, but more like maybe I was interrupting Kaimi. “I'm sorry. I should listen to you.” And then the children, our children are listening. And they are modeling themselves after us. I love this example of using our messy moments as a teaching tool, not just for our own relationship, but for our children. And we try to do the same thing.
So when we know that we're being impatient and maybe even unkind, we try to tell them, mommy and daddy are sorry for what we just did. This is what we hope to do better in the future. And to also guide them in the actual act of an apology. And what does an apology look like and how should you apologize?
Developmentally it'll take time. But it's also the repetition of them seeing a good example. And then once it clicks developmentally, then they'll be able to really do the whole like, oh, I understand.
Wai... I don't know if any of the listeners in episode two, noticed that I said "she" apologized? I have an eight year old who is a boy and I have a five-year-old who's a girl. It's the five-year-old… the five-year-old is always apologizing, but she doesn't know what she's apologizing for, but eventually I'm hopeful that with a good example. She can give a good sincere apology.
PASHYN’S PET PEEVE – ADULTS SHOULD BE ABLE TO APOLOGIZE TO CHILDREN
Pashyn:
Which speaking of children brings me to something that I try to apply a lot, because it was something that I didn't care for growing up. And that was being able as a parent to apologize to your kids and also not using the, “because I said so.” I believe that it's so important for them to know why they can't do this or that because it builds respect and tolerance for each other, both ways.And I know that so many parents still use it.
It's like a cultural thing too. I don't care for it. Some people have their reasons why, and I totally get the respect thing, but I think that we can go about it so differently. And being able to apologize to your child is humbling and a great learning experience for ourselves.
Malika:
Yeah. That whole attitude, I guess of, “I don't owe you an apology.”
So getting past that, getting past the, the sassy or not even getting there at all. I think that might be a part of the problem is just the lack of awareness, the lack of awareness that we are all human, we all value, similar things, love and family and relationships. And if we can be open to hearing each other's perspectives and even agree to disagree, like we're talking about apologies here that you can get to that point. If you are open to having the conversation, to listening, to being sincere within that conversation.
Pashyn:
Yeah. It's all about the human element to it. And I think no matter how much data is collected, everybody's going to have an is very entitled to their opinions. And as long as you can respect each other as human beings, no matter what path you want to go on, whether that's completely separating the relationship or repairing it, the fact of self-respect knowing that apology happened, but I can no longer tolerate this relationship because I am teaching people how to treat me every single time something happens.
SOME RESEARCH-BASED STRATEGIES DR. HUBBARD TAUGHT US
Malika:
It's so true. K, I'm gonna run through a few things that Dr. Hubbard said, and then maybe if something pops up that you want to talk about, then we can do that. Okay. So some of the things she talked about were that people have a preference for a particular medium. For example, I'm not great with email. So if you send me an email apology, I might not see it. I might, might just ignore it. Some people hate text messages, some people don't like phone calls, that type of thing.
Also, she said, where did the transgression happen? So what medium did it happen in, and maybe that's where you start the apology, but that then we need to have Wendy, you were saying, we need to have that follow-up we need to rehash this. It can't just stay on Facebook. If it's a big thing, if it's not enough to repair the relationship because your goal is to repair the relationship. So if you're not sure if that repaired the relationship, you better go a step further.
And she also talked about multiple times. What she actually said. That apologizing multiple times does not impact the sincerity of a message. So if you've ever felt like, oh, I already said, sorry. Once if I see it again, they might not think I'm sincere research is not saying that it is saying the opposite. Go ahead, apologize again. It is not seen as less sincere. (at least according to Dr. Hubbard’s research results)
And I actually had a story to share about this. One where I followed up with a letter and actually a couple of times I've… I like letters. I don't know. I'm traditional maybe. And I just feel like there's sincerity in a letter. Yeah, exactly. It's intimate.
And then I actually had something happen in, within my family and it was a really big thing that completely ruptured my family and my mom and I. I love her dearly, but we had a rupture in our relationship and it was a complete misunderstanding, but we also have a cultural barrier. And so not only was I not able to really explain the situation, but it was difficult to explain it in a way that she would understand. And so she was very upset with me for a very long time. And it was hard for me to understand. All I was doing was trying to help the situation. And I emailed her. Because she live in France part of the time though?
I can't really see her, but I emailed her every single day. Just saying, I love you. I'm sorry. I love you. I'm sorry. I love you. I'm sorry. I love you. And now we have a fabulous relationship now, but it took time.
TIME IS IMPORTANT, AND DON’T HOLD ON TO THAT GRUDGE
Pashyn:
Yeah. Time is an element to apologies and repair for yourself for each other for the third entity that we create through the relationship and then being able to accept the apology and not file it and be like, October 4th, 2001 when we got into that fight, remember that.
Malika:
I don't want to make generalizations, but personal experience again, the episode two is your research episode. This is personal experience. Don't you feel our older generation does that a lot?
“WHEN YOU KNOW BETTER, DO BETTER” – GIVING OUR PARENTS GENERATION GRACE
Pashyn:
Yeah. Maya Angelo said, “when you know, better, you do better.” And the data that we have now, what we have learned today in our generation is so different from their generation. And so maybe they just didn't know, they didn't have access to as much knowledge as we do, which is so self-improving. So I don't hold it… I did hold them accountable and I held anger at certain people for how they handled situations. But sometimes I just like doze off and I'm like, gosh, they didn't have the privilege of knowing. The older generations they handled it completely differently. But I feel like I wish that they would be more open-minded to receiving new information, things changed. And not only did things change and adapt, but they were wrong back then and you gotta be okay with that. It's okay.
Wendy:
And they're still not okay with it. And even if we try to share the information we've learned, it's still a closed minded approach, I think. And it depends.
PUTTING OUR EXES ON BLAST
Malika:
I like that perspective that we can give them grace for what they don't know, especially when it's family relationships or people that are very close to us, that we know we want to keep it our lives. We make concessions, but it's not just the generational context. Like you were saying, it's a societal context. It's the cultural context of what someone grew up in with how they even think about apologizing or communication in general. And actually that leads me to how she was talking about context. And remember she was saying, oh, if you try to apologize during a breakup that no matter what you're going to say, it's going to be taken negatively.
Why would you tell me, oh my gosh... my ex-boyfriend... kay, I won't say his name, but this is putting him on blast. My ex-boyfriend once showed up. He showed up on my doorstep. He was drunk and crying. We were going through a breakup. I really was trying to save the relationship, but I had just started dating someone new. And clearly I'm not going to let him drive wherever - he's drunk. And so I said, you can sleep in my living room and we can talk about this tomorrow.
And so we go upstairs, I'm in my bed. He texts me, mind you. He has not said, I love you yet. Within our relationship. He texts me. “I'm sorry. I love you.” Like for real?
Wendy:
Oh my god.
Pashyn:
That's kind of awkward.
Malika:
It was awkward.
Wendy:
And he was drunk. I had a very similar situation. I was still in high school. Ex-boyfriend shows up just literally, ruined my life, like I just started getting over him, showed up at my doorstep, drunk as heck and said, go sleep. I'm not gonna let you drive. When he fell asleep, I just stole his money and took his car. That's exactly what I did. He woke up. I was not there and his car wasn't there and his wallet wasn't there.
Malika:
No apologies given... Oh, my God! (laughter)
USING EMOJIS AND WORDS TO DESCRIBE OUR NONVERBAL BEHAVIOR
Malika:
We're going to wrap up. Okay. So some of the parts that you talked about earlier, because I promised this at the beginning of the podcast was the nonverbals. So talking about how do you know the tone of a message of an apology, especially. And so I loved how Dr. Hubbard talked about writing it out in words. I use the emojis. I'm an emoji girl. Every single text I send probably has an emoji because I want to give you a tone to my text, but writing it out, saying my chest is tight and my stomach is in knots. Just thinking about how you must feel right now. I am so sorry. In fact, I'm tearing up right now.
Please accept my apology. Writing that out in words. In addition to the emoji, just how effective that could be. What do you guys think about that
Wendy:
Expressive communication. I don't think I can use emoji's for expressive communication because the words matter so much for you to understand how I feel or for me to understand how you feel.
Malika:
Do you think you might ever write it out in words?
Pashyn:
I'm open to that technique. It's an interesting one. And I don't think I've really used it. Maybe I did, like back when I was super emo-lani. It's probably, it's hard for me to self-reflect on how I feel so deeply like that when I want to be so logistical with the, with what happened. It's a great thing to keep in mind.
Malika:
Yeah. Just another tool in the toolbox. Okay. We'll just have it there. And then in the future, next time we give an apology and if we have to use technology, we know we have that at our disposal.
Pashyn:
Yeah. My neck is so tight. Cause I like cry right now. And you know that feeling when you just tight in your neck. That's how I feel right now bebe girl.
Malika:
I think the next time you guys use that in your personal apologies, it'll just turn into comedy, which might help with the apology as well. Cause you’ll know exactly what the other person is doing. Oh my gosh.
To button up our time here, the research-based strategies that were shared by Dr. Hubbard, where to put yourself in the receiver's shoes to think about the medium. To think about how you usually interact with this person and think about the context. And of course, if it's complex, be a good listener, take the time to understand why the person is hurt before you apologize. And finally, you can always apologize more than once. And following up with an apology that has been given over digital technology with an in-person apology is always a good idea.
Is there anything important to this discussion that we haven't had a chance to talk about or that you'd like to say before we hop off?
Pashyn:
I think it's just so beautiful to know that we all have different styles of communication and I, and it's really important that we realize. That we have to be completely present. So that one, it doesn't happen in the first place, but two that we can understand who the people are that we care about enough to apologize to them in the way that they feel is most fitting,
Wendy:
Understanding your audience. Yeah.
Malika:
Know your audience and it's that sincerity part, right? That's what makes an apology. It has to be sincere or it doesn't work. It's not going to help to repair the relationship. Oh you guys, I love you. First of all, so much. I know you have to give back to the keiki, the kid. So do I, and we didn't get to everything that Dr. Hubbard talked about. So those of you that want to listen to that again, episode two. It's so good.
And let's see, you guys are avid consumers of personal development, any last recommendations, maybe a book or an expert or a podcast to give our audience.
WENDY AND PASHYN’S PERSONAL DEVELOPMENT RECOMMENDATIONS
Wendy:
I'm reading breath right now. And it's a book about really just understanding how breathing affects everything. So it's research and personal based. It allows you to understand history. And where it came originally from indigenous cultures and how indigenous cultures still practice that.
Pashyn:
I'm a big book reader, but I guess my recommendation to whoever's listening to this is to continue to chase what makes you happy, chase joy, whether you are continuing personal development through Communification podcasts, or through books, or even through documentaries.
However you want to think the best part is knowing that whatever we take in nutrition for our energy is also what we listen to and what we watch. And so making sure that you are taking in good.
Malika:
Your digital consumption is so important. Actually, we talk about that in episode one. So if you guys want to hop back and listen to that one, it's really intriguing as well. Thank you so much for your time.
Wendy:
Thank you. We love you.
Malika:
I'm sending you a big fat bear hug, the kind where the person squeezes super hard. And for a second, you can't even breathe, but you just feel so loved.
Pashyn:
And I probably couldn't breathe cause like my head is like in your stomach
Malika:
Pashyn fits under my chin.
Oh, thank you.
Pashyn:
Thank you. Thank you to everybody listening.
References
View Episode 2 show notes for references.
YouTube version
Episode 3: “It better be a gateway apology”
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