Pilot Episode: “Mom get off your phone!” Research-based tips to beautify your communication
Below you will find the show notes for the pilot episode of the Communification Podcast. Mahalo for listening! Welcome to the ohana!
This episode is centered on “parental phubbing” - together, we find out from an expert (Dr. Soo Yun Shin, UH-Mānoa Department of Communicology) what that is, why we should be concerned, and get some research-based tips. Then, a couple of my girlfriends (Kaimana Brummel & Elizabeth Sage) join us – we share our struggles, our triumphs, and discuss how we plan to commit to the beautification of our communication in this area.
Please note: This pilot has been repurposed and re-edited as Episode 4 and Episode 5 of the Communification Podcast
Main takeaways
Research shows that people don’t like being phubbed, and evaluate phubbers negatively.
Research also shows many negative outcomes for children when they are phubbed by their parents.
Not to worry! There are research-based strategies that you can use to better manage the integration of mobile phones in family settings. These include: parental modeling of healthy digital habits, and open communication to discuss and develop shared expectations among family members.
Dr. Soo Yun Shin bio
Dr. Soo Yun Shin she is an Assistant Professor at the university of Hawaii at Manoa in the Department of Communicology – which is the scientific study of human communication. Her research topics include how technology impacts people’s lives and how people process information online.
Elizabeth Sage bio
Elizabeth Sage is an award-winning event strategist. She received her journalism degree from the University of Nevada and her MBA from the University of Illinois, she’s worked in the event industry for nearly two decades and currently is the Associate Director of Events and trade shows at illumina. Liz is one of my oldest friends we met in Hilo when I was three… she has two daughters and in her free time you can find her in the Think Tank Happy Hour on Clubhouse discussing human connection in the experience economy.
Kaimana Brummel bio
Kaimana Brummel received her degree from The George Washington University, did her graduate studies at the University of Hawaii at Manoa and is the Director of Advancement at Seabury Hall. She was recently recognized by Pacific Business News as an outstanding young business professional in their 40 under 40 list, and was part of the first class of keiki at Punana Leo O Maui Hawaiian Language Immersion Preschool. Hawaiian language and culture have guided Kaimana throughout her life. She is a Maui mama of two, like me, in fact she lives right down the street. We love to go on social distanced walks to catch up but it was fun to do something a little different today.
Link to turning your phone black and white:
Gray Scale and Smart Phone Addiction
References
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Pilot Episode:
”Mom get off your phone!” Research-based tips to beautify your communication
Interview by Malika Dudley with Dr. Soo Yun Shin
Malika: Aloha Dr. Shin. Oh my gosh, thank you so much for joining me for the pilot of the Communification podcast. I’m so excited. And also thank you for being on my thesis committee. I’m so grateful.
Dr. Shin: Hello, Malika, Thank you for having me here. I’m also very excited about your pilot podcast project. I just I think this is wonderful idea. So I hope that I could be a good contribution to this new program.
Malika: Oh, I’m sure you will be. And actually, on that note, we want to know more about you. So why are you so interested in this field of communication? And specifically how technology impacts communication? Where does that passion come from, and maybe can also tell us a little bit about the things that you’ve studied or enjoy learning about?
Dr. Shin: I think my passion for communication technology started from my exchange student years. So I went to a different school as an exchange to you my college, when I was actually a senior student, and I didn’t have a big dream back then. So I was like, just figuring out what to do for my future. And then in that school, I met new friends who are actually studying the technology. And then more specifically, they were studying something called human computer interaction. And then they told me that well, you know, later, people are going to communicate with machines, our world will be very different. And I was very intrigued by that idea that now we are living in that kind of world like artificial intelligence, Siri, Echo, Google. So, you know the future we were talking about back then is here. But I think that was kind of the first time I was intrigued by communication and technology and machines. And then nowadays, I’m actually studying a little different aspects like communicating with other people through technology. But I think that the passion with the communication technology started from that experience.
Malika: Yeah, so much has changed.
Dr. Shin: Yes. And that’s, that’s why we are doing this podcast, right? Because knowledge is everywhere. And then it’s affecting our lives heavily.
Malika: Yes. And we need people to examine these issues. We need researchers to be doing this work, but also to teach it. So thank you so much for being here today to share your knowledge with us because it’s just so important. So to start, I will present today’s communication issue. It’s a very common thing. We all do it, or at least from my perspective, I feel like a lot of people do this. Maybe we don’t want to admit it. Perhaps we aren’t even aware we’re doing it. So today’s communication issue is parental phubbing. And phubbing it’s such a funny word. And I think I learned it for the first time from you in your class. And I remember everyone just kind of giggled when they heard the word, but it describes a relatively serious issue. So would you mind defining the word phubbing for us, P-H-U-B-B-I-N-G.
Dr. Shin: So phubbing is actually yeah, a very funny sounding word. And I still also remember that people are giggling. (Laughter) And so it’s a combination of two words. So phone plus (+) snubbing. It’s basically that people get distracted with their phone while they are talking or in close proximity with someone else. So it’s like other people feel like they are being ignored or being snubbed by another person’s phone using.
Malika: Could you tell me what a phubber and a phubee is?
Dr. Shin: Yes. Basically, the person who’s using their phone while they’re talking with someone else is the phubber. And then the person who’s being ignored in that incident is the phubbee. So that’s how we define to people is that problematic situation.
Malika: When I think of that word, phubbing… I automatically have negative thoughts. I don’t know. I feel like it’s almost an attack. I’m not sure if I feel judged or guilty or if it’s something else, but in a general sense, without getting too narrow on the parenting part of it. Is there research that confirms my innate feelings that phubbing is just not a good thing, maybe pointing to concerns or issues surrounding the act of phubbing. And how that impacts communication?
Dr. Shin: That’s a very good question. So yeah, actually the phubbing itself, not only the words, but the phenomenon itself is quite new to our lives. Because back then in when we are talking or in close proximity with someone else, we are only supposed to pay attention to that person. So that is our social norms. And that’s our expectation, but with the phone now we can communicate simultaneously with other people who are not even in the same space and that part is new to our life and therefore the expectation about what to do with that kind of stuff is not very well defined compared to our very traditional way of communicating. So that’s why we are having all this kind of a problem and trouble and concern about how to interpret it and how to deal with it. Am I okay with allowing it to happen to our family or myself is okay to do that or not? Yeah, we all have these issues, because it’s fairly new. So regarding the impacts of phubbing behavior, there have been a few studies, and especially there have been rising number of studies in very recent years about this phubbing. And one of the consistent finding is that people do negatively evaluate phubber, there was some very fun experiment that they invited people in. And then for one person, the researcher asked the person to use the phone while communicating with another participant. And of course, the other participant who was on the other end didn’t know about that instruction at all. And then after the conversation, people are asked to evaluate how polite they thought that a conversation partner was, or how socially attractive or how well the conversation went. And then they didn’t like that person very much. They thought that that person is impolite. And they thought that also the communication itself did not go very well. So yeah, those kind of findings kind of confirm our negative reactions to phubbing.
Malika: It makes sense. I mean, I feel like I feel all of that. Do you feel those things?
Dr. Shin: Yes. Yeah, I would hate to see a person who’s sitting right in front of me keep using the phone not looking at me. Yeah, it’s not a fun feeling at all.
Malika: It really isn’t. But norms are changing. And especially with the Coronavirus and everyone being at home more often. And we’re physically separated. We’re having to use technology even more than we were before. And we were already having issues with phubbing and using our phones at times that maybe some people might perceive as not being very polite, or kind in the way that we’re treating each other. So why don’t we dive into that more narrow topic. As parents, we spend so much time thinking about our child’s media use, maybe some of you listening can relate to this, it’s how to regulate that, and how to guide them. There’s time limits, and blue light concerns. And we’re just trying to keep up with how quickly technology is changing. But today, we’re going to flip the script, and we’re going to talk about the parenting side of that, the parents use. So I have a couple of stats that I wanted to share with everyone today to just kind of give us a lay of the land. So 30% of children indicated in a national survey that they wish their parents were less occupied with their devices. 28% reported they consider their parents or guardians to be addicted to their mobile phones. And parents also indicated that they struggle with device distractions. They spend too much time on their phones. In fact, 68% reported that they are at least sometimes distracted by their phone in the presence of their children. So I’m really interested to hear what the literature says about parental phubbing specifically.
Dr. Shin: Yes, so especially in this Coronavirus pandemic, we are spending a lot more time with family. And the phubbing could be a very frequent behavior we observe from our family members, there are quite a lot of survey studies that are very recently done. And consistently what they found is that it’s actually not very good for children. So that’s unfortunate news, given the frequency of phone using, for example, some studies found that the more phubbing their parents do, the more depression or depressive symptoms their adolescent children tend to show and then some of the reasons behind it is that by seeing their parents phubbing a lot, they feel like they are less connected with their parents. And then they feel like parents are not very warm. Or some some people even thought that they are rejecting them. And then also another study found similar results saying that some children tend to interpret parents or phubbing as something that’s related to themselves. So in other words, they think that it’s their fault. Maybe they are not so interesting, maybe the parents not liking me so much. And that’s why they are not paying attention to me. And then if children start to make that kind of interpretation that could be leading to lower self evaluation. So in their core, they start to think that they are not very worthy. So these kind of results are very depressing, but also I think, to be very important, because they really show that parents phubbing has real impacts on our children’s lives.
Malika: Absolutely. I actually did a bit of research before hopping on with you and some other things that came up were increased family conflict, increased child behavior problems, physical safety issues because parents aren’t paying attention, so the response time goes down. The fact that we model behavior as parents for our children, and so when we have what they call problematic internet use PIU, studies have found that our children sometimes also have that and I saw this other study, it was about feeding infants and device use. And so when parents were using their devices, the parents showed significantly fewer verbal and nonverbal interactions with their children. And those interactions were less encouraging than they would be if they weren’t on their device. So it really seems to span all of childhood.
Dr. Shin: Yes, I agree. Yeah, just like you said, there were some survey findings that also found the positive correlation between parents or phubbing. With their children’s phone addiction, they are mimicking or modeling their parents behavior in a way we don’t want them to. So yeah
Malika: And you know, I feel guilty a lot of times too. So there’s that that cognitive dissonance. So for those of you listening, that’s when your ideas and values and beliefs on the inside aren’t quite matching your behavior on the outside. And, you know, it causes you that psychological stress, and for sure, I feel guilt, and sometimes I even judge others, husband (whispered), or the very thing that I’m also sometimes doing.
Dr. Shin: Yeah, I I totally understand that guilt. Because it’s hard to be detached from technology, especially our phones, it’s already a part of our lives in many aspects, but also the children see that behaviors, and then their interpretations might not be as we expected. So that could be problematic.
Malika: Well, hearing what you have to say about how children can perceive it, it makes sense that we would feel that guilt, because we are so in tune with our children. And so that totally makes sense. It’s cyclical, right? I mean, we’re not feeling guilt for no reason.
Dr. Shin: Yeah, you might be sensing that a little bit.
Malika: Yes, well, and you know, it’s not unusual for my kids to ask me to get off of my phone. So that leads me to a slightly different question. I’m wondering if there’s a difference in the way people communicate or perceive phubbing when it’s a close family tie, so someone you’re really comfortable with, and they just call you out? Hey, Mom, get off the phone. And so you know, you just do it, and you still love them? As opposed to an acquaintance or a professional relationship? I’m sure it might be context dependent as well. What are your thoughts?
Dr. Shin: So that’s a good question. So I think we do need more studies to investigate how relationship closeness between the phubber and phubee makes any difference in how people interpret or how people perceive that phubbing behavior. But so far research has been found that it’s not actually making much difference, the experimental study I told you before, they also did a comparison between people they know and people they do not know. But in any of those cases, people still evaluate negatively. So even for the friends, when they see that their friends, their phubbing behavior is brought up, they still do not like and that was actually unexpected, because people thought that maybe you know, for friends, people might be more forgiving, they might more understand or just like you said, if they really do not like they might speak up and then make them turn off their phone or focus on themselves. But that actually was not the case, people still did not like that phubber very much. And there are also other studies like romantic partners. And then the phubbing behavior between romantic partners has been one of the big factors that drive more conflict and less satisfaction. And for boss and employee, so in the workplace you see every day, you sometimes see your colleagues or your boss be on the phone all the time. And then some studies actually found that when employees see their managers using the phone a lot, especially phubbing behavior, they also trust that manager less they, tend to engage with that manager less, so lower engagement. So all this kind of evidence, yes, suggests that maybe we are not more forgiving to those we are close to maybe it could be the other way around even I think because these are the people I really desire attention from. Right. So these are the people I really care about. So if these people show that phubbing behavior, then it’s really affecting me.
Malika: Wow. Yes, that all makes so much sense. Thank you, Dr. Shin for all of those insights Well, in order to move into those tangible strategies and research based tips that we want give everyone at home, and that I want to learn, I thought we would bring in someone from our Maui mama magazine community. She is a mother of three living in Pukalani, Maui. So let’s take a listen.
Annie: As a mom of three little ones, I feel like the hardest part is dividing my time equally and being completely present with each child, throw my phone in the mix and it’s nearly impossible. I rely on my phone for everything. I also feel the pressure of returning text messages as it’s my only way of socializing with friends during the Covid era. I’m attached to my phone. When the kids are around, I make an effort to put my phone away because I want to lead by example but it’s been challenging and Olivia who is five will say mommy put your phone away, or she’ll get really upset. She’s even asked for her own phone and doesn’t get why I won’t buy one for her. Kaia who is three, will hide my phone under a pillow so yes, I definitely have a lot of mom guilt when it comes to using my phone around the kids.
Malika: I feel you mama… First of all, to all of you listening in right now we’d love to hear from you too… to all the moms and dads out there we are not all in the same boat, but we are in the same storm and sharing our experiences really helps us to feel more connected and not feel so alone in our struggle. So thank you to Annie for being so vulnerable and sharing with us today. I think what stood out to me the most… is the push and pull – the tension – of using our phone for essential reasons- whether that’s to connect with friends, or make appointments, for work… but as Annie shared we’re still trying our best to be good role models. Maybe Dr. Shin you can weigh in here – with some research-based strategies that parents can use to beautify our communication with our children in this area… Annie’s on the right track here, right?
Dr. Shin: Yes, thank you, Annie. Just like Malika said, Thank you for sharing your experience. And then I I’m sure that a lot of parents can relate to you. And thank you for trying to be a good role model for your kids. Because parents are the best model for children, and their behaviors regarding devices. These days, their habits affect their children’s digital media habits. So definitely being a good role model is an important aim to achieve. And then also there is research backing up that definitely the parents digital device behavior, phone behavior affects children’s behavior, too. So yeah, keep working on that goal. But another thing I would advise based on research is that sometimes it’s a very good idea to set a shared expectation between you and your children. There are some survey and interview studies that looked into the expectations, children, parents have, for example, if they are watching something together, and if both children and parents share the expectation that the primary attention is not to each other, but it’s for the media consumption, then it’s okay to use phones, because the expectation is there that we are not supposed to talk or communicate with each other, we are allowed to use our devices. But I think it’s important to actually communicate that expectation with your children beforehand, so that you are not letting this go awry, that everyone has a different expectation and that we don’t know what’s going to occur. So try to communicate with your children that for example, if you need to use your phone, check your phone for your work or important business, then communicate that with your children so that the children expects that oh, you are using that phone for this particular purpose. So your primary attention is for work for now. But mom, we’ll come back to you. So yeah, having set the correct expectation that’s being shared among family members will be a key based on research findings.
Malika: I love that. I actually pulled some research and I it might be the study that you’re referring to. It’s a qualitative study. So they did interviews with 18 Parent-Child pairs. And the parents reported that they do communicate with their children about technology use, but the kids said, Oh, yeah, well, my parents communicate with me, but they only tell me what not to do. And in most cases, it was reactive and not proactive. So that’s a really great tip to have that proactive conversation before the thing happens, you know, and to set those shared expectations. And the other thing was that parents had rules for their tech use, but no one was following them. So you know, the parents don’t follow them, the children break the rules, let’s say it’s no phone use at the dinner table, you know, and so people aren’t really committing to the rules that they create or enforcing them. So maybe we just need to get more granular with that conversation to really realize that it’s going to be dependent on context. And we need to work that into our shared expectations so that there can be exceptions like you were talking about for work or whatever it is, but that we communicate to our kids what that expectation is, and when there are exceptions. I mean, I guess it’s just open communication, really. And in that study children said it was okay when my parents checked their phones for work. So when they don’t know that you’re checking it for work, they could make up whatever story they want in their mind. Like you were saying earlier, it’s me, I’m not a good person. That’s why my parent, you know, is not giving me the attention. But if we just say, oh, mommy has to do work right now. I’m so sorry. I’ll get back to you soon, that makes a huge difference.
Dr. Shin: Yes, I totally agree. Of course, then “Mommy will come back soon”, that promise needs to be kept. But yes, definitely I agree that open communication will be the most essential part to solve this issue.
Malika: And there was one other thing in this study, you know, this is just one study. But in this study, the children didn’t necessarily want more attention from their parents, they and I get that, yeah, I get it, right. Like, if I’m on my phone, and they’re on, you know, whatever, playing dolls, or whatever they’re doing, we’re mutually occupied with other things. But when they wanted attention, they wanted that to be reciprocated. So they didn’t want to be phubbed.
Dr. Shin: Yes, I think that’s a very good point. It’s not that we need to give 24 hour attention, but when they need it, and then when they get phubbed at that very moment, it’s when things can really go awry, definitely it’s important to sense that desire, from family members and from our children give our attention at the correct moments.
Malika: Oh, well, I know you’re so busy. And I just I need to let you go. I know I do, even though I want to continue talking to you forever. But to recap, I guess what it sounds like is that we need to be more intentional and less reactive. And that’s a good strategy to take when tackling this issue and communicating with our children. Is there anything else you think our listeners would be interested in?
Dr. Shin: I think another thing I like to share about this phubbing is that there’s one research finding says when people see another person phubbing them, they also tend to reciprocate that behavior, they become another phubber. So that’s also something we need to remember that we don’t want our children to be a phubber to ourselves and then to other people. So you don’t want to give that kind of conception that that is fine, because apparently no one likes it. So yeah, just remember that, although we are really busy, and we need to use our devices, it’s important to set the boundary, it’s important to have an open conversation about the expectation in the family. And then just remember that my behavior could be reciprocated could be replicated by our children. So yeah, let’s be the first to break the cycle.
Malika: Yes, we don’t want to set that bad example, we want to try to set a good example, we just skimmed the surface here. So I will provide resources for you as well in the show notes and links. So if you want to read more literature, or find out more about Dr. Shin can go to our show notes. And you’ll have all those resources there. Thank you so much. Dr. Shin.
Dr. Shin: Thank you Malika for having me. It was really fun to talk with you.
Malika: Right back atcha. See you at graduation? Maybe… I don’t know? Do we have a graduation?
Dr. Shin: Hopefully. (Laughter)
Conversation with Malika Dudley, Elizabeth (Liz) Sage, and Kaimana Brummel:
Malika: Hi, ladies!
Elizabeth & Kaimana: Hi there!
Malika: Oh, my gosh, the struggle is real. And that was a lot of information. So I thought we’d just dive right in. Maybe Liz, you can go first and then Kaimana, you can chime in? And we’ll just take it from there.
Elizabeth: Sure. Absolutely. Yeah, there was there was a lot to digest. And I recognized a lot of my own habits in some of what she was talking about, of course, I also felt like I was kind of on the right track based on some of those takeaways and things that we can work on, as we’re trying not to do some parental phubbing with our children. But I really appreciated all the tips she had. And to be perfectly honest, it made me feel less alone as a parent, it made me feel maybe a little bit less guilty that I’m not the only parent that is doing this. And the struggle, as you said is real. And all of us are out there struggling right now.
Kaimana: Yeah, I really appreciated having a word to this experience, trying to be a more conscious parent, looking at my behavior, and seeing it and so many other people, or knowing that other people are going through it, like Liz, that was very comforting. And I really appreciate at the end that Dr. Shin was giving suggestions in a non-judgmental way.
Malika: I appreciated that as well. I think we can maybe dive right into our struggles. So I’m not going to go first. I actually have my children recorded and it’s pretty damning. So why don’t we start with one of you… who wants to go first? Tell us the struggle… what is it that you struggle with and why with parental phubbing?
Elizabeth: I don’t mind taking that first. So especially the last year you know, I am an extroverted extrovert. I fill my bucket by connecting with people and that has been stripped away from me, and all of us really, right for the last year and so I have really relied on media, texting, my Marco Polo video messages, Snapchat whatever I can to connect with my friends with a community to just, you know, fill that extrovert bucket. So as a result, I’m definitely on my phone more especially in front of my children as they’re all home with me. At this time, I have two elementary school aged girls ages seven and nine. And they see me just kind of phone in my face all the time. Additionally, all of my recipes, I like to cook a lot, all of my recipes are pretty much on my phone. And so I even have my phone up to just do basic tasks like that constantly. And it really is a challenge to kind of explained to my children and differentiate what I’m doing on my phone at any given time, because all they see is this thing in front of my face or in my hand. And there are definitely moments where my kids will tell me, Mom, just put your phone down, you know, and I listen, I mean, kids are really the best mirror right to what we’re who we are as people and what we’re doing.
Malika: That’s so true. And when we just ask them, you know, ask them how they feel about it. It’s so interesting what comes out of their mouth? How about you Kaimana, what’s the struggle for you?
Kaimana: The struggle for me was I felt like my whole family, we were kind of phubbing each other because my kids were on devices a lot, especially early in the pandemic when I needed them to be occupied. So I could get some work done when I was working from home. Now that I’m working more outside of the home, and they’re able to go to school a little bit more, you know, I’m okay with them being on their own devices, but I start to get really anxious when they’re on it. But I realized that that’s just a mirror for my own use that I get anxious or disappointed or hard on myself when I’m always on my phone. And so I try to model the behavior, but it comes out in really unproductive ways. That doesn’t seem very, I don’t want to say strategic, and I’m inconsistent like Dr. Shin said. I hate the word rules, not rules, but like parameters or I don’t know, maybe we need more rules. I’m kind of a rules person, but it was hard to hear about my own behaviors. I’ll just say that and, and not feel disappointed and just know that we’re all going through it and that there is a way to get better.
Malika: Yes, that’s a really good point that we’re all not lost causes. And also, you know, talking about the Coronavirus, it is really important to recognize that we all got thrust into the situation. And just as social media and media has been ramping up over the last few years and we’re trying to navigate this we all had to navigate through the Coronavirus. So it’s a really good point to talk about giving yourself grace. For those times when we’re just on autopilot – it just kind of happened. It just happened that now everything is on my devices, my work my play school, everything.
Elizabeth: Yeah, I think about that a lot that wow, if this were the pandemic in 1918, how miserable would I be? I mean, I also, you know, have that gratitude for having this this little device, a six inch device that can still keep me connected and in touch with the rest of the world. So there’s there’s that sort of silver lining to it as well. At least we do have that it’s just finding the balance at the end of the day.
Malika: Definitely. It’s It’s so nuanced.
Kaimana: Or maybe the integration, I struggle with balance, because then it feels like I’m striving for this equilibrium. But maybe if we can think about how do we integrate technology or the use of a device into our life in a healthy way that works for us and works for our kids, if we’re talking about specifically being our own children.
Elizabeth: I love that Kaimana. It’s integration and intention, I think, are the words that are coming to mind. So it’s integrating it in an intentional way. Maybe shifting it… I know, I’m starting to solutionize already. But shifting it into a way right where we can we can let it be a positive enhancement to our life rather than a time suck or drain?
Malika: Absolutely, I tend to think that it all starts with our values. So it’s really a matter of identifying what your values are identifying what it is that you need to do, right. So there’s those non-negotiables, whether it’s work or whatever it is, maybe it’s connecting, you know, that “me” time, and then having discussion with the people that matter. So maybe that’s first your partner or spouse or whoever it is that’s in your household, that’s an adult to talk through. Okay, well, what do we want to use our phones for? And why and when… kind of figure out what are those rules and parameters, but also then integrate the children and have them be a part of that process? And you hear this a lot at school, right? I mean, how many of our kids have had their teachers and they all create the rules for the classroom together. Right? And there’s research behind this that says that kids will stick to rules that they were a part of in creating, they’ll stick to them better than a rule that we put upon them. And I think that’s a really important part of it, too.
Elizabeth: Yeah, I think you we keep saying rules, but I I really like the term I think about bumpers. So I have this visual in my head of like when you go to a bowling alley, right, and you have the bumpers in the lane. So it still gives you a bit of a runway and some kind of back and forth room, but you’re staying on track. For the most part. I think that feels really comfortable for me thinking about what I’d want to discuss with my kids instead of kind of laying down the hammer and saying hard and fast rules. Because also in all fairness, that means I need to follow them to and to your point Malika about giving ourselves some grace and compassion, I also realistically know, I would likely not be able to stick to everything 100% of the time, and I’d like to be a mother of my word as best I can. So I think it’s sort of creating those bumpers that everybody can kind of play in that lane.
Kaimana: There’s so much of the use of the phone, I like the bumper idea. Because if we say, well, we’re not going to be on our phone at all that takes us as people who you know, have a job, or there’s coworkers trying to get in touch with us. Like it’s also having to then draw boundaries with them. And then it dries out. And that can get really exhausting. And so you know, we’re managing expectations, people’s rules, all this stuff in the home, but also like we’re connected to folks outside of it. So then it’s I don’t know, that feels like a lot right now. So if I could just start in my home. So thank you, Lizz. Also, I don’t know Liz, if you’re a recovering perfectionist like I am. So the rules are comfortable to me because they’re very clearly you follow them and a perfectionist loves that and so many moms can get into that mindset. So if we’re able to give ourselves that windy lane a little bit, and we’re gonna bump and it’s okay, we’re coming right back. And we’re just we’re headed in the right direction. But there’s no one perfect path right down the middle. It’s going to zig and zag. And then but we’re headed in the right direction. And thank you, that’s a such a good metaphor, I’m going to use that definitely.
Elizabeth: And I love what you just said about how we have the people we’re connected to outside. And it just it kind of sparked this thought of me. And this is also the world that our children live in. And this is the world they’re growing up in. I had this conversation quite often with some of my mom friends on do we raise our children based on the world that we knew, right? And the values that were instilled in us? Or do we adjust based on the world they live in. And I mean, really, our consensus at this point is you have to adjust to the world they’re living in. So as much as we would like to limit our children’s screen time or take it away completely, I think there also may put them at a disadvantage later on. Because they are living in a completely digitally connected technological world, and to not give them any access to it. And they understand that we live in that world as grownups as well. So it’s kind of making those adjustments, which again, why I love that bumper analogy, because it’s making those adjustments also based on the world that we live in.
Malika: And we definitely saw that firsthand, you know, there are schools like a Waldorf where there is no device use, that’s a rule at the school. And it’s one that you’re expected to also have within your home, then the pandemic hit. And all of a sudden, even those people who, you know, are doing what they thought was best for their children. And it goes with the philosophy of their school. But now they actually have to use it. And so it was really interesting to see how people will use this word so often that I started to hate it, but pivot, everyone had to pivot. And with the bumpers, you’re allowed to do the pivots, right?
Elizabeth: Headed in the right direction.
Malika: Yeah, at this point, any direction, right? We’re just like trying to move.
Kaimana: To Liz’s point too I mean, I don’t think we’re moving in a direction where devices are going to be a less part of our life. So if we go back to what Dr. Shin said, and modeling that behavior, we’re also giving our kids the tools to be able to not phub other people. I mean, how many times I’ve tried to get attention from my kids, and they phub me. And then I’m like, I’m your mom. And then I’m just like, Well, I do that to them. So how can I expect this to go any different. So much of when I was talking to Dr. Shin was trying to be more consistent with the language of the rules. And if I had to use my phone, just say, set an expectation of time, maybe I need two more minutes to finish this text to someone I work with. And when I’m done, my phone’s going away and trying to be specific with the time the why and then after this, you’ll get my full attention or something like that.
Malika: Yeah, before we get into how we tackle the strategies and everything I did want to share with you what my children said. It’s a little embarrassing, but you know, we’re all in this together mama’s so I guess I will start with this one. This is my five year old. These are not scripted. I asked the kids “How do you feel when mommy and daddy are on their phones?” I’ll put Waipuna first and then you’ll listen to Jackson. Jackson volunteered the information about how he’ll do things differently when he’s a parent.
WAIPUNA: It feels bad because I like to play games with you. That’s my favorite thing to do.
When you’re on the phone it feels like I can’t play with you.
JACKSON: Sometimes we’re playing, but sometimes we want to play with you. We just feel sad, like we’re missing out. You don’t want to play with us. When I’m older, I’ll be on my phone for a limited amount of time, have it when I need it, and when my kids ask for me then I’ll put it down.
Malika: So yeah, that’s what my kids had to say.
Elizabeth: You are a brave brave woman Malika. I would have a hard time I think hearing those answers. And at the same time, I think I’m going to ask them tonight because now I’m genuinely curious and want to hear what they think about it.
Kaimana: I’m trying not to like I was like tearing up a little bit, because I mean, they are was watching us. And we just we want to be such good parents, and there are so many different hats, so many different roles, and I so want more boundaries, feeling like those are firm and comforting. And they’re clear, it’s just not the world we live in pandemic or not. And that’s very helpful. You know, I think about how much connection you know, Liz, when you were saying I’m a extroverted extrovert, I’m like, Oh, my gosh, me too. And having more tools to be able to do that is so exciting. But trying to figure out how the consequences of all of that we’re still going through that I’m sure the research is showing its ever changing. And just to live it in real time and and have grace and I vacillate so much between feeling so good about being connected, and then wanting to be a hermit.
Elizabeth: What resonates for me is that I feel like, like you said, we’re trying so hard to just kind of be the perfect parents. And ultimately, and we have to accept this as parents, no matter what we do, we will probably screw our kids up some way, right? I mean, there’s literally we could be what we’re considering to be the perfect person and never phub them or never, you know, give them all the time and attention they want. And they’ll still end up on a therapist couch in 20 years talking about how we ruined their life. I mean, I just I feel like there’s no way around that. But going back to kind of what you said Malika, earlier about the values, I think maybe from a phubbing perspective, and I will say some of Dr. shins stats were rather daunting, right. And those especially talking about adolescents have more depressive tendencies when their parents are on their phone all the time, that to me is to prioritize how I want to show up as a parent. So really putting more energy into avoiding those behaviors that can enhance the depressive symptoms. And the anxiety is more important in the long run. I think if I if I’m trying to weigh out, what are the what are the things I can do? What are the levers I can pull to screw up my kids as least as possible?
Malika: Well, that’s what’s great about the strategy that she presented, which was shared expectations. It was open-ended, you know, so your shared expectation can be a shared expectation to each other. Right? If that’s okay, you know, you talk about it, you’re like, this is the time when we can all be on our devices. And everyone’s alright with it. No one feels slighted. No one feels like what were some of the things she was saying. Like children sometimes have lower self evaluation, because they’re being phubbed by their parents, and they start to feel less worthy of their attention. But if you just set that expectation ahead of time, then it totally helps. And that is so comforting to me. So I’ve tried it…. this morning, there was actually a tsunami watch. And I was doing updates around the clock for three hours. And you know, I just had to explain it to my five-year-old. “Hey, honey, I’m so sorry. Mommy can’t play with you right now. But I’m a meteorologist.” I explained what that was to her what I had to do, and why I was doing it. I’m trying to keep people safe. And what’s so interesting is I’ve done this before, and every now and then when I pick up my phone Wai will actually say, “well, Mommy, you’re keeping people safe. Yep.”
Elizabeth: Oh, well, it’s connecting with her right? She’s understanding your role in the world. And why your phone or the media in front of you is an integral part of that. So that’s, that’s great.
Malika: I did want to share this with you though, too, as we move into the other strategy of parental modeling, because she also said this after I asked her, “What will you do when you are a parent?”
WAIPUNA: When I’m older I’m going to do the same thing as my mommy and daddy.
Malika: Profound.
Liz: Wow. Very telling… also the opposite of what Jackson said. When I think about what Jackson said, with being on the phone, I mean, I’m wondering if there is a group of folks that are our kids age that will grow up and be like, I hated the way that that made me feel, I’m never going to do it. And I just I genuinely, they won’t do it. I don’t know, what do you guys think? Do
Kaimana: I’m seeing that already. I work at a high school. And I already see high school kids opting out of social media, which I think is different than a device. But there are some parallels between them really actively not trying to build a digital footprint, trying to live a really anonymous digitally low key life because of a number of reasons. One is being able to better control how they’re presented online and not wanting to do that yet. And a lot of them have a lot of different reasons. It’s a very, very small amount of the kids that I work with that they’re still growing, you know, in adolescence and stuff, but I think you’re onto something in those and it’s already starting to happen based on the lived experience that we’re on. And I’m like you, I’m an older millennial. I have been on Facebook since pretty much day one, I went to an East Coast College and was one of the first few 1000 people on it and have probably been on it everyday for 15 years. And that is horrifying. But at the same time, it’s done so much good. And I struggle every day to have boundaries around that just that time and then my device time, so we’re living it.
Elizabeth: But exactly what you’re saying, Kaimana, I think it’s this course correction. Right? You know, the benefit that our children have are the data points that we didn’t have when we joined Facebook or any of these social platforms. So we hear all this stuff about sharing data. And I mean, we hear it now. But that wasn’t even a thing back when we joined it. And so our kids are growing up, and they understand the impact it has on them. And that actually gave me chills to hear you say that some of the high school students are already opting out of social media, even if it is a small percentage, that could be the very beginning of a movement, right? If you think about the bell curve model, but yeah, I think they’re equipped with, you know, knowledge that we didn’t have growing up,
Malika: We did not have that knowledge, we are the generation that learned about this as it happened. I mean, we went from the landline phone to the giant cell phone, then we had remember, we had the tiny little cell phone, we wanted the smallest cell phone you could have and you’re connected to myspace on your computer. We’ve been going through this without really any checks and balances. We’re just winging it. And so now as parents, we’re having to come to terms with this with how we use media and why and the impacts that it could have. And we can’t get down on ourselves. Because we didn’t know this stuff. We did not know… 15 years ago, when I was in my master’s program, which studies human communication. We did not study this, even though people were on Myspace and Facebook, it wasn’t yet legitimate. It wasn’t a legitimate area to do that type of research. And now it is because of how society has changed and how much technology has changed. You know, we got to give ourselves that grace too but it’s so great to have those strategies. Why don’t you both tell me some of the tangible strategies that you will be enacting because of hearing this podcast.
Elizabeth: So I will go with a few of mine. So some of what Dr. Shin was saying the boundaries, the open conversations. So I’ve started in the last couple of months, I’ve started kind of equating if I’m on my phone or sending a text and one of my children walks up to me and tries to have a conversation it to me it’s oddly similar to if I’m having a conversation with one of you in real life, and a child comes up to interrupt you, and you say one moment, let let me finish talking or whatever it is I’m doing and then I’ll pay attention to you. And so I actually do that with my phone. So if I’m looking at my phone legitimately, if I’m just you know, mindless scrolling, I will – I am saying on record – I am going to make a more conscious effort to put it down. But if I am actually sending a text or in the middle of some sort of communication, I will tell my children “Hold on a second I’m just sending this text”, like you said Kaimana explaining the why right “Oh, I’m just sending this text to so and so about XYZ. Give me a minute and then I’ll pay attention to you”, and I think a big part of that is the follow through though because sometimes especially on our device, it’s easy to get distracted and just click on the next thing. So it’s really staying true to your word and showing up with integrity with your children and so for me personally I’m definitely going to make a really intentional effort to do that after listening to Dr. Shin and then also just from a personal perspective setting limits on my certain apps that tend to suck me in I have I currently have a 15 minute limit on Instagram every day and I hit it every day – that goes real quick and then I will sometimes add time to it but it makes it easier to then just put my phone down when I need to be present with my kids during dinner those really key hours I think from after school until bedtime, which are the witching hours the most difficult time to fill. But that is I think also the most important right… and that is really the most kind of beneficial family time you have. So those are some of the tactics I will be employing after listening to Dr. Shin.
Malika: What about you Kaimana?
Kaimana: I’ve been struggling, or on this journey, or headed, I’ve been the ball headed down the lane bumping up and down for a while I tried to moderate my device use by time control apps and things like that. And I am not a moderator I have learned I’m kind of an all or nothing type of person. So I’ve deleted all social media off of my phone, which means I’m not on Instagram. I haven’t deleted it but I’m just not on it because I did the 15 minutes and I would always add time and then it would be… I remember specifically there was a day in April. My phone gave me how much… and I was on my phone for eight hours. And for me, it was just I could feel it physically. And I really feel for the people whose jobs like really require them to be on their phones, my job is not that job. So now it has cut down on my desire to be on my phone. And so like Liz trying to be, I will be better at communicating what I’m doing. Because I also think if I’m not willing to share with my kids, what I’m doing on my phone, if this isn’t a conversation, I don’t have to tell them exactly what it is. But having conversations and relating with people through my phone is people I’m relating with. So if I’m not willing to bring my kids into that world, I really should check on why I’m even doing that. So whether it’s who it is what I’m doing, and then if appropriate, maybe inviting them in to what I’m doing. So I’ve been working really hard on our family budget. And so I’ll spend time really nerding out on that. And so when the kids come in, I say, “Well, why don’t you come and look”, so they start to understand because like you, Liz, my kids are seven and nine. So they’re kind of old enough to start to understand, but it’s still pretty abstract. So really showing them you know, this is this section, and this is how much we spend and being like okay with that discussion, and it’s worked in the past, because if they want to, like go out to eat, and I’m like, “well, let’s look at our budget” or they’re like “what’s on the budget” and can actually see it, it feels good to invite them into that part of my life because our devices are our life. So maybe we can, I can, I’m kind of talking through it as I’m saying it but inviting them in, setting boundaries. I also think it’s important to make our kids wait, they’re so used to just instant, instant, instant. So I love what Liz said not just automatically going to give them the attention but making the boundaries and I want them to know that I will also honor that when they’re on a device and they say “hold on Mommy, I’m at this part of my game… “how much more time do you need? I need one more minute. Okay, you’re gonna have one more minute to finish that and then we’re gonna go take a bath”.
Malika: So much there. Kaimana, Oh my gosh, okay, I had never even thought about respecting my child enough to let them also give me a “I’m in this level of Minecraft, I need 30 seconds to finish it”. And so I love that because it wasn’t even it wasn’t on my radar. So I love that. Now that’s on my radar. The last thing I wanted to mention is we’re talking about open conversations, and these shared expectations that we’re going to work on with our children. And where it clicked for me is – that IS parental modeling. So we’ve got these two strategies. But by doing that, by having this open communication by bringing the children in to the conversation of doing the budget with you, or this is how mommy plans an event, or this is how mommy keeps people safe, that we are modeling that behavior for them that gets imprinted in their brains in their minds.
Elizabeth: Can I share one final fun tip, if all else fails is… I don’t know if this is if you guys knew this, but you can actually turn your phone black and white. So I read this about five years ago, I was completing my graduate degree as well, like I was getting an MBA and I struggled with my phone as a distraction from my studies. And I had heard that there is a setting but you can go in and change your phone from the color to black and white. And it it genuinely limits my that kind of poll to always be checking it for whatever reason, the black and white is not as interesting as the color if we’re really struggling to do that. Turn your phone black and white for a few days. And I mean, Instagram is just not as vivid in black and white. Right?
Malika: That’s a cool tip. Well, I’ll put that in the show notes. So I’ll make sure to find that link. And I’ll put it in the show notes for all of you listening. Gosh, thank you so much for this conversation. It was so nice to just have some girl chat and get real and get deep. And you know, I feel that this was helpful for me. So I really hope that the listeners also feel the same way. Thank you so much.
Kaimana and Elizabeth: Thank you Malika. Thank you.