Ep. 0: The making of a “thesis baby”
Below you will find the show notes for “Episode 0” of the Communification Podcast.
Mahalo for listening! Welcome to the ‘ohana!
This episode is all about the making of the podcast. Dr. Amy Hubbard, my thesis advisor, joins me to reminisce on the journey. She also offers up a great perspective on graduate school, imposter syndrome, failure, perseverance, and even sneaks in some research-based communication strategies. I hope by listening in you can appreciate the behind the scenes process that occurred prior to launching this podcast. My thesis is now complete and I have graduated! When developing the podcast, every decision we made was based in research. The paper itself was 75 pages long with more than 24,000 words. It was a labor of love and I can’t wait to share my “thesis baby” with all of you!
Main takeaways:
Often we stick to something because we are afraid of letting other people down, or care too much about what others think. Dr. Hubbard said, “it can be paralyzing and it can get you stuck in being too conservative and not taking chances.”
The importance of having the support of a mentor to guide you and be your cheerleader.
Not being afraid of failure but instead learning from it.
“Slow progress is still progress.” Dr. Hubbard emailed me this short phrase after a particularly hard week where I turned in just one page of work. It’s now my life motto. I quoted it in my UH-Manoa Class of 2021 commencement address. (see below)
How saying “it's okay or don’t worry” can backfire big time. Dr. Hubbard said, “don’t ever tell somebody don’t worry about it because clearly they are worried, or you wouldn’t be having this conversation. When you say that you are undermining their emotional experience.”
Constructive criticism versus destructive criticism, imposter syndrome and how I used reframing to move through those darker times.
A discussion around why this podcast is so unique and needed - right now.
The struggle of not wanting to be a burden to others, and taking on the weight of the world. And the realization that teamwork really does make the dream work.
You can read my thesis paper HERE.
Dr. Amy Hubbard bio:
Dr. Amy Ebesu Hubbard is a Professor and Chair in the Department of Communicology (the scientific study of human communication) at the University of Hawaiʻi at Mānoa. The main areas of her teaching and research focus on conflict management, nonverbal communication, interpersonal relationships, and deceptive communication. Her research for the past decade has centered on the role of apologies, attributions, and perspective-taking in communication during conflicts in relationships.
More background on Dr. Hubbard
My UH-Mānoa Class of 2021 commencement address
Transcription:
Malika:
So what should I call you, Amy or Dr. Hubbard?
Amy:
Um, Amy, call me Amy. If you call me ... Well, I don't know.
Malika:
I love this. This is exactly what our meetings have always been like. . . Amy, Dr. Hubbard, there's laughter. You know what I mean? I just I've loved this process so much with you. I wonder how many times I'm going to cry during this discussion...
Amy:
Crying is totally appropriate because it is a strenuous process. It is like you're birthing a baby. So some crying, some emotions seems relevant here.
Malika:
I want it to go way back. Gosh, 17 years ago, I don't even remember when we met, under what circumstances, what class… you're just a part of my life. I don't remember.
Amy:
So I don't remember either, but there are certain things that stand out to me. I know we never had classes together when you were an undergraduate student at the University of Hawai’i at Mānoa, but I remember you were... I remember you as a grad student in our department. I remember that there were doors closed, but yet we could hear singing. We were like, where's that beautiful singing coming from? Oh, that's Malika. Malika is singing. And it sounds so wonderful. That's like an episode, that I remember vividly in my brain.
Malika:
That is so funny. Well, I was running for Miss Hawai’i, so maybe I was practicing. I know that I practiced on my students. I mean we teach people how to present themselves and we know that practice makes progress. And so I was like, you know what, I'm teaching public speaking. I should put myself out there for them too. And maybe that's what I was doing. I don't remember. But, that sounds very plausible.
Amy:
Our whole department, I think, had gone to the Miss Hawai’i Pageant. So now we're spoiled, right? Because we're like, Oh no, is she going to win? Oh my gosh, she won! Wow. Now, you know, if we know anyone, they better win. I mean, what pressure is that for other people? That's what I remember from way back when we first met.
Malika:
Oh my gosh. Well, what I do remember about communication classes though, is just, and maybe you've experienced this as a professor, is just how it brings people together because of how relatable the content is.
Amy:
Yes, I think that's so true. I think there are pros and cons. It's a double-edged sword when it brings people together. So one of the things that we really enjoy when we're here in classes, is students often say, Oh, I can relate to it… like they have an “aha” moment. They never realized that some people studied this, or that they didn't realize they do some sort of pattern. So those are really sort of helpful.
But the challenge with that is that sometimes our own personal experiences might be idiosyncratic, might be unique, and that many people will have different sorts of experiences. So reconciling those two sort of different things, my own personal experience, but here's what some of the research says that many people in general experience, and it's fine to be different than that, but here's something else that you should know as the backdrop.
So sometimes that can, that can throw people off a little bit.
Malika:
Yeah. The discussions get really passionate, and what's great is it's people from all walks of life. It doesn't matter what your major is. It gets passionate. I just remember that being a great experience, you know - unifying.
Amy:
Unifying, yes. Because in our classes, oftentimes we will talk to each other and that might be different from other people's experiences, that we want you to share your ideas. We want it to be kind of a safe space. So I often tell students for example, Oh, this is not entertainment for other people.
So you can't go around and say, Oh, did you know so-and-so said this and this and this and this and this. We're using it to help us understand the concepts and the ideas, but nobody gave us approval for you to go and share that with other people.
Malika:
What happens in communications classes stays in communications classes.
Amy:
Yes, yes, yes, exactly.
Malika:
So now we fast-forward and, um… well, okay. I guess in my case, it's not really, it's like a, a slow roll into Masters then, Miss Hawai’i, then back into Masters, then total pivot to Broadcast Meteorology, then 15 years go by and then Master's again. So what was it like when I just showed up?
Amy:
Uh, which time? (laughter) We're like, Oh, well… she’s back! Malika's back wonderful! Oh, where did Malika go? Oh, she's back again. Wonderful! Oh, wait, where did she go? Oh, okay. Here. Great. Okay. Let's see how this is going to work.
Malika:
I finally committed, and then it still wasn't a smooth process because I did “one year.” So we were trying to get me my second year of my Masters program. So when I first came back, I had my cohort, which was such an amazing cohort. I really loved them so much. They were my officemates and each of them was so unique.
I felt like I learned so much from them just being in class with them. And, and then I was like, Oh, I'm kind of disappointed in myself, but I don't think I can finish it this year. And I remember I went into your office. And I was like, is that even like a thing?
Amy:
And we're like, Oh, of course we can make it work.It's fine. We'll figure stuff out.
People have different paths. You never know what brought people to graduate school, what keeps them in graduate school. We try to figure out a way. And so part of it is once we accept you into our program, you're part of the family and we know you're capable of doing stuff, but there are certain hurdles that you need to get over, but they are benchmarks designed on purpose to help calibrate your skill, to help you progress along the way.
I remember maybe there was a little tears during that meeting when you came into my office about, I'm not sure if I can do this. Now, granted you were flying in from Maui every week to attend a single grad class, and then you would fly back out. So we were like, well, clearly she's committed. Who does that? We're like, well, you need to be live. There's an experience with having grad students altogether. So if it's possible for you to come, great. And so that's what you were doing. And so that was amazing in and of itself.
Malika:
It was hard… but I remember crying and I think a part of it was that there were all these like serendipitous moments that kept happening. That really kept me going when I felt really down something like, Dr. Lee saying, okay, here's your book for this semester. And she leaves the room and we're all looking on Amazon. And we're like, Oh my gosh, this book is 200 something dollars and it's not going to get to us for a month. How is this even practical? And, I say out loud, and I remember Gabby. She’s a part of my final cohort. I finally have someone I'm actually graduating with! I remember Gabby because throughout the year that I'd been there so far, there were all these things that would happen. Right? I would say something and then it would happen or whatever, just all these moments of serendipity.
And I said out loud. Gosh, I mean, there's only three of us in this class. I wish she would just walk in with three books… and Dr. Lee literally walks in with three books! She says, you know what we'll just use last year's version… and Gabby looked at me and was like, jaw drop. And I just thought, yeah, this is where I'm supposed to be.
All of these moments kept happening. So when I went into your office that day, it was really about the fact that I was going to graduate with my sister. She was at UH-Hilo and I was at UH-Manoa, but we were supposed to both be the Class of 2020. I just felt like that was serendipitous.
So it was going against all of those, those moments that were telling me that I'm where I'm supposed to be. So letting go of that kind of fairy tale idea that my baby sister and I would be getting our masters together was difficult too. And I'd already made a public announcement to everybody that I was going to graduate…
I think this whole process has been really about giving myself grace, and then by doing that, allowing those that are also on this journey with me, through social media, or just my friends, whoever has been kind of following along, to also recognize that they can give themselves grace. We all have unique paths, but also on a bigger scale in life.
Amy:
It's true. And sometimes the expectations that you have, or especially for yourself being in public, it makes it kind of harder. So sometimes people stick on certain paths that maybe aren't appropriate for them at the moment, but they do it because, Oh, I'm worried about other things, people's perceptions, what are they going to think?
Oh, does it seem like I'm going back on my word? So many people in grad school are like am I letting somebody down, am I being a fraud? Right? You have those sorts of concerns around, Oh no, I'm going to be discovered. I mean, I remember vividly myself going through grad school and worrying that, okay. You get these assistantships sometimes and you can teach in classes. And even as a new assistant professor, even now, I think, Oh no, I'm going to say something that somebody else is going to call me out on. And then it'll just be mortifying and embarrassing.
It can sometimes be paralyzing, right? To think about those sorts of things, or it can also get you stuck in being too conservative and not taking risks and not taking a chance and not saying, oops, this didn't work out. You know, I'm going to take a different path.
I thought this was going to happen. And so yes, being open to sort of like release or let go of some of those kinds of things that sometimes we carry around with us that keep us from pursuing our dreams or pursuing it in a way that is good for us can happen.
Malika:
Going right with what you're talking about. That happened with our process. And you've been here with me through this entire process where I wanted to do a documentary and then COVID hit and it was like, no one's traveling. No one's going anywhere. There's no way that this can happen, especially not in one year. I mean, it was already kind of a fanciful idea to try to think I could get a documentary done in a year, but I was trying to figure out how do I use my own gifts... Because we each have gifts to offer the world and I'm trying to identify, what are my gifts and how can I help people in the world? And, I'm not Mother Teresa, I'm not Nelson Mandela, I'm Malika. So, what is it?
And I identified that I love to teach. I love speaking. I love inspiring people and I have a skill with interviewing and presenting… telling people's stories. So how can I tell a story - yet not through a documentary - so we pivoted to podcasting. Which in hindsight seems like so much of a better fit for what I could do.
Even beyond getting this Master's degree. It was always about a lifelong thing and not the degree itself. I mean, let's be honest. I have all these great ideas, but I never, I mean, not, I never, I do, you know, stick to ideas, but when they're big ideas, they're scary.
And so I had to hold myself accountable and to have you there telling me, Oh yeah, you can totally do that. Yup. Yup. Yeah. I remember I gave you my list of projects that were possible. I cried of course, because in every meeting that I have with you I cry, but it was because I wrote this list and it didn't seem that attainable. And to have someone say, Oh yeah, I like all of them. I was kind of expecting you to say, that one no because of this, and that one no because of that. Let's massage this and we'll… and it was like, no, these are great. Just pick one.
Gosh, I guess that's really what life is all about…
We're all so fearful of these things. And all you have to do really is just commit and go for it. Failure is not the worst thing on the planet. You learn from it.
Amy:
It's the best thing. It's such a good thing. I mean, that's where we get hung up. Because for example, you said a documentary. Yes. A documentary would have been a huge undertaking, right? But I think you could do it too. It's that whole, if you knew what was all involved in something, then you would never do it because you would see all the different pitfalls and everything. So it is a kind of leap of faith. It is a kind of one foot in front of the other. And then you do it. And then, then there's people in your life who can give you a good gauge of, oh, maybe that for the future this might be a good stepping stone. And so, that's what we do in grad school. You come up with ideas and then we work together to try to figure out.
Is this something doable in the one-year timeframe? Is this something doable or not doable? Is this something that meets expectations for a graduate student who's graduating with their master's degree?
And so there's qualitative kinds of differences there, and we're trying to work through that. In our mentor, mentee kind of relationship that we have in grad school. Your ideas were great. So we're like, Oh, okay. Yeah, let's do that. Let's pursue that. Wonderful! Which one? Which one do you like best? Let's start there. You could do them all, but let's start with one.
Malika:
It really was baby steps, but again, all these analogies with life with this Masters, right?
One time I just turned in one page of work, but you told me “slow progress is still progress.” And I've shared that quote so many times with so many people, because it's just so true.
I'd never heard it in that way and for some reason, I needed to hear it in that way, rather than one foot in front of the other, or every journey starts with a single step or, the ones that we usually hear - for some reason, slow progress is still progress just rang true to me. And I think that's going to be a motto for me for the rest of my life. So thank you.
Amy:
Oh, that's great. I'm glad to hear it. I mean, because it resonates with me too because I can put myself in your shoes. And what grad school is like, because it is sort of life-changing.
If you put your whole self into it, then it changes who you are, how you think, how capable you feel you are, but in that process, you also have doubts. You’re right that whole letting go but still continuing on - that kind of grit that you need to have. So sometimes you don't recognize that you're making progress. You're still making progress. Slow progress means I still move forward. It's not like going around in a circle in one spot.
So yeah, it's okay. But that's sort of double-edged sword too. Okay. It's okay. Means that it hasn't been okay. So this is what's interesting about communication, so somebody's telling you it's okay, sometimes can feel undermining of my emotions because I don't think it's okay. And now you're telling me it's okay. And so I have to struggle with that too.It's just like when somebody says to someone else, Oh, don't worry about it.
Don't ever tell somebody, don't worry about it because clearly they're worried, otherwise you wouldn't be having this conversation. And so when you say don't worry about something, then you are undermining their emotional experience and you don't want that to happen.
You're trying to be reassuring, but sometimes the words that you choose can not be doing what you think it's supposed to be doing.
Malika:
That makes me actually think of when there were moments where I felt really proud of myself, Oh my gosh, I got so much done. And then I would get back a million comments and it was so defeating. But, this is the process in life that I'm going through… is being okay with and determining the difference between constructive criticism and destructive criticism.
And so that's been my journey the last couple of years, really trying to be aware of that. But it still stings in the beginning, but then I have to allow myself the grace to cry or be upset for a minute, and then go, no, no, no stop. This person, this woman wants you to succeed and we're both working towards a common goal. We're on the same team.
Personally for me, that process was really rewarding to even allow myself to be vulnerable, to feel hurt for something that I shouldn't be hurt for was very freeing. It's vulnerable.
Amy:
You're getting assessed and not in the socially polite, Oh, good effort. It's harsh because we don't have time. We're working towards some goal. We have to get there. We start from mutual respect of the other person, but then we kind of get down to business.
There's no time to say, you know, the sentence leading up to this was really great. I love that word choice here, maybe you should reconsider this particular word. We just go, that word doesn't fit here, that’s not the right tone, it needs to be like this.
You're right. There's this kind of harshness, but there's this kind of understanding that we are moving and that it would be completely inefficient and ineffective in a sense to spend time, Oh, you know, framing it in some other way. That then might be misleading. But it is brutal in regard to that, right? And then there's tons of it, it's not just one little thing - it's like full on pages every week, you know? And, you don't realize it, but I know you're making great progress. We're moving forward. Things are progressing. I like how the ideas are, but what you see on your end is… awkward, that's maybe not the correct word for that, or the best word for that, what do you mean by this? Maybe people might misunderstand this. I mean, on and on and on and on and on and on.
Malika:
And when you already have that imposter syndrome. I think everyone can relate to this when you already start at that place, it makes it even more difficult to be receiving all of that, but it's a part of the process.
So, having to just be okay with - all right, this is me and you know, maybe this week I seem dumb and that's okay.
Amy:
No, never dumb.
Malika:
It's a process. Life is all about learning and every single week I learned something new and I'll never forget that one week where my whole idea of how the podcast was going to be completely changed. I had thought I'm going to do the guest first and then I'll send the guest thing to a researcher and they'll listen to it and then they'll pick it apart. And then I read about HOW to teach and it was just like a light bulb moment.
No, no, no. The researcher needs to go first and not just that, it also makes sense, logistically because you guys don't have time to be listening to a 30 minute guest piece. You know what you know, and you can teach it very quickly in 10 to 15 minutes. So already logistically that makes sense.
But also, teach us first. And now the guest is actually eager to learn. They're like, Oh my gosh, I never knew that word. Oh, wow. I love that research-based strategy. And then they are so ready and prepared to talk about it for the second half of the podcast where they're just like, Oh my gosh, I can't wait to tell you what I think and how I've already applied some of these strategies, or didn't know I was doing this, or maybe I'm doing the opposite of what this research-based strategy was saying.
But to be able to talk about it in this authentic way and share our stories… I'm just so passionate about this now that I've seen it actually happen with the pilot. I know it can work and I know that it could help people with their communication - because it's helping me.
Amy:
It's true. The way that you've organized it to have the expert first or coming upon that… to have the expert first and then have the guests, that kind of dynamic really makes sense. In terms of here's something. And now there's some anchor that we can talk around. And talk about it doesn't mean that that's, what's going, that it’s the right or correct way, but it's a way where we can then begin to explore these particular things.
But what the challenge is for a lot of people, and what you have unique skills in and I think what makes the podcast and in your genre work really well is that you have skills in understanding the research itself and then also connecting with other people. Because many times we have people who are experts and then, well, we can't understand, we can't relate. We can't figure out well, what does that mean? And then the other side of it is we have people who relate totally to others and do really well there. But they can't interpret what the research says.
It’s like, Ooh, you've simplified it too much. Or that's not exactly what that study is saying. And now we're misleading people to a certain extent by you trying to give them this kernel or nugget. And so you're in this unique and valuable and needed position to bridge those sorts of worlds. We totally need that. How do we take scientific information and how does it become useful for the public?
We need somebody to mediate that process who can put both feet in those sorts of worlds, and you're able to do that.
Malika:
I will try my best. I feel like I need you. I asked Amy if she would be my consultant forever. I'll just send it to you. You tell me if it's actually saying what it's supposed to be saying.
Well, I mean, I do my research, but I'm not you. And I know my limitations and what I'm good at. And I think this process has really helped me to realize that, um, you know, we're so individualistic in this society and I really just fell into that and embraced it fully.
I always feel like I have to do everything on my own, and it's not just about me wanting to prove myself. It's really also not wanting to be a burden to other people. So I think this process has helped me to shift my mindset. The concept of a team and of working together and bringing different brains into the mix. Just how valuable that is.
So thank you for that too.
Amy:
Oh, you're welcome. I have totally enjoyed being a part of your team, our team, because one reason why it works is because there are both of those streaks, there's the streak of independence and wanting to make sure that you do things right. You pull your share, you do the hard work yourself.
If you don't do the hard work yourself, you cannot rely on somebody else to do the work that you need to do. So there's that. But then there's also, that it does take a team. It does take different minds. Going getting together and kind of bouncing around that get you to see things in different ways that get you to understand things differently.
And that's how you're able to reach new levels. That's how everybody elevates when it's not just you. Rising up all together.
Malika:
I guess let's recap. So this podcast is about bringing communication theory to the everyday person. We're going to be sharing expert advice, and also sharing authentic stories. I just really hope that any of you that are listening… that this will be relatable, that you won't feel so alone in your struggles and your triumphs and that you might be able to learn a little something along the way. So that's the hope for the podcast.
Personally right now, what we're going through. We completed the pilot. And I'm going to defend my thesis this week. I'm creating my presentation right now. And then we have the colloquium, which basically is going to be the graduation, from what I'm understanding there really isn't a very big graduation type of thing planned at UH Mānoa, unfortunately this year. Do that over zoom and, and I'm grad speaker! Amy was there every step of the way! We went from 13 minutes down to five, five and three seconds. I was over. (laughter) Somehow we did it together. I remember the last email said the brutal cut version. It was like the thesis all over again.
Amy:
You did the hard work. I'm the assist. I give you the little assist.
Malika:
No, you do way more than that. Way more. But that was great. I was shaking. I was so nervous and it was competitive. I had to audition. So that was very nerve-wracking. But I got it! And now I get to record that and it'll be on the commencement website, which is so exciting. And then… upward and onward, I guess we're just gonna hit the ground running. And Amy will probably be on the podcast, many times in the years to come sharing her expertise.
So I'm just really excited for what's to come.
Amy:
Me too.
YouTube version of this episode
Giveaway Details
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Olukai footwear x 2 ($100 value each)
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Aloha Modern luxury towels
Goli Gummy 6 month supply of vitamin gummies
Lehualani jewelry
Chef Sheldon Simeon’s Cook Real Hawai’i cookbook
Primally Pure mist, serum, and mask
Cameron Brooks photography prints x 5
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Samia Surfs Children Book
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