Ep. 16: “I have never seen so many butts in my life,” the trials and tribulations of online dating

Below you will find the show notes for “Episode 16” of the Communification Podcast.
Mahalo for listening! Welcome to the ‘ohana!

Mahalo to an anonymous donor, the Queen Ka’ahumanu Center, and Maui Tutoring for donating to the Maui Food Bank as a part of this episode’s pre-roll giveback program!

Main takeaways

Online dating while traveling can be tricky
When the pool of available singles is small, online dating can help open up options
Safety first, ALWAYS
A lot of the men she’s encountered online are MARRIED
Finding the right balance of self-disclosure in your bio is challenging for women with safety concerns

Time codes

GUEST: Anonymous online dater (voice has been modulated to hide identity)

[04:00] CATCHING UP WITH AN OLD FRIEND WHO WANTED TO SHARE HER EXPERIENCE WITH ONLINE DATING
[04:00] WHY SHE GOT ON THE APPS
[07:00] THE POOL IS SMALL HERE IN HAWAII, ONLINE DATING OPENS UP MORE OPPORTUNITIES FOR MAKING CONNECTIONS, BUT BEWARE
[13:00] SHE HAS BEEN VERBALLY ABUSED BY ONLINE DATERS MORE THAN ONCE
[15:15] HANDLING REJECTION IS DIFFICULT, AND YOU NEED TO BE PREPARED FOR WHAT MIGHT RESULT
[19:00] HER REACTION TO WHAT SHE LEARNED IN EPISODE 13 FROM DR. JEFFREY A. HALL
[21:48] PICK ME BOYS AND INCELS

EPISODE 16: “I have never seen so many butts in my life,” the trials and tribulations of online dating

CATCHING UP WITH AN OLD FRIEND WHO WANTED TO SHARE HER EXPERIENCE WITH ONLINE DATING

Malika:
It's so good to see you. Oh my gosh. It's been so long.

Anonymous dater:
I know! You look amazing. I'm so proud of you and all the things you're doing.

Malika:
I really appreciate that. And right back at you, we're talking about online dating, so you don't, haven't found your other half?

Anonymous dater:
Uh, no. And that's, what's so funny is that that's one of the first things, if I haven't seen someone in a long time, they're like, are you saying anyone? I'm like, I worked 12 hours a day from home. No.

Malika:
And it's COVID.

Anonymous dater:
And it's COVID and I'm a homebody and I mean, where I live…

No... I'm related to everyone. I can't date here.

It's just, I work all the time. My business is my boyfriend, my child, and that's all I have time for. So with online dating, I have the apps and I only use them when I travel. And because of COVID, I'm not traveling. So I haven't been on the apps in a long time that I know for sure I'm not missing out on anything.

Malika:
Let's talk about that. You live in a small town where you know everyone, so is this what led you to online dating?

WHY SHE GOT ON THE APPS

Anonymous dater:
So what actually got me started is one of "my gays" decided that it was time for me to get online and that was probably about six years ago. And at first I was really, really hesitant about it.

I had zero interest. I was like, I'm not going to be one of those people that meets her husband on an app. And so I just like dabbled with it. It's kind of like a lot of it is like mindless swiping when I'm traveling just to like kill time. But then I decided, I'm going to try this because how else am I going to meet someone?

I've met all of my friends brothers, I've met all of their husbands brothers, I've met all of their friends. Like at this point, I really just don't feel like I'm going to meet anyone through somebody that I know.

So I've tried to find like that balance of swiping when I'm traveling, but not... I'm considering it more like window shopping.

Just like seeing what's available. And then if there's something that I like, I'm going to go to the store or go in their profile and like take a look around. And if I like something I'm going to swipe right. And I've mainly used Tinder because that's what was available when I first started. And then I've also tried Bumble and Hinge.

But the thing is, it's the same people on every single app. And sometimes you'll find new information about them depending on the app, because each app has different requirements. So like maybe if I saw them on one app, I wasn't interested, but if I saw them on another app and saw like a little more information or different photos or something, they might keep my interest a little bit. Yeah. But for the most part, it's just all the same. Exactly the same.

THE POOL IS SMALL HERE IN HAWAII, ONLINE DATING OPENS UP MORE OPPORTUNITIES FOR MAKING CONNECTIONS, BUT BEWARE

Malika:
We talk about here in Hawaii, that it's one degree of separation. So already your town is small, but the state is really small. So have you, has online dating opened you up to maybe outside of the state?

Anonymous dater:
Yeah, so I used to travel quite a bit before COVID I would go to the west coast quite a bit.

So anytime I was there I was opening up my apps, seeing what's available and just trying to put myself out there, but also see what's available. And it's kind of the same everywhere. I have a very unique Hawaiian name that I go by. That's also tied to my business and that makes me really vulnerable to stalkers and people that don't, they don't see that there is a line to be drawn when it comes to online dating.

A few years ago, I was on the east coast and I was swiping and I had my online dating profile and my Hawaiian name. I was traveling by myself. So it was already something that I wasn't exactly comfortable with, but I was just looking and I had someone that I never would have matched with go and add me on Facebook because my name was so easy to find.

For me, that completely freaked me out. It made me feel not safe with online dating because there is a line to be drawn where it's like, this is my dating profile. This is all that you, this is all the information you get. This is all I'm giving you unless we match and I give you more information.

And so now I go by my English first name until I personally feel comfortable enough to tell someone, by the way, I go by my other name, I've had some issues with stalking and with people being inappropriate with me, and I do this for my own safety. The only time I feel comfortable enough doing that is when I feel comfortable enough with this person that I've talked to for maybe a few days.

And I'm like, okay, it's time for us to go grab a drink or go grab coffee and be comfortable enough to tell them that. And I have only been comfortable enough to do that a handful of times. A few of them were when I was on Oahu and swiping. I just feel like that may be the area that's most appropriate for me to be looking for somebody to date.

When it comes to online dating my personal safety is more important than anything else. Especially in this day and age where everybody's lives are online. It's so easy to find people.

You also have to like... FaceTime is really great before you go on a date to make a connection, to make sure that the person you're talking to is real, but a lot of people will put their social in their Instagram profile. And, a lot of those people are men that are in serious relationships. And so going on to doing, you know, create checks, making sure that this person is who they say they are and then having to go onto their Instagram or their socials and then finding out that they've been in a committed relationship, a lot of them are married.

Those are situations that I try to avoid. And when I swipe, like when I'm in LA or in San Francisco, most of those men are in serious relationships.

And so it's kind of like their way of letting you know, like, "Hey, I'm actually in a committed relationship." I'm not going to come out and say it on my Tinder profile. But this is me letting you know. And if you're okay with that, then whatever, do whatever you want with that information. It's wild out there.

And most of my friends have been in relationships for over 10 years. So in a lot of my friend groups, I am the only person that has ever experienced online dating. So it's, it's hard for me because I don't have any, like, when I tell my friends, this is what I'm dealing with, they, they can't comprehend it.

And they're like, why would somebody that's in a committed relationship be on an app? It's because it's easy. They don't, it's easier for them to cheat. It's easier for them to find somebody that's okay with them cheating with them. A lot of the times the apps are just trash. It's not really people that are looking for relationships or even looking to date.

And that's where I am. I would like to go on dates, but I'm not like dying to go on a date not like I am so tired of being single. I can't stand it anymore. So I'm just gonna find somebody to date. It's, it's weird. It's really weird. And I have been able to go on a few dates with some guys that have been really nice and it actually worked out.

I felt safe and I took that time to talk to them for a few days before we decided to go and meet for a drink. And I always put myself in safe situations. And even though I have swiped quite a bit, while traveling. The only time I've actually felt safe enough to go on dates is when I'm on Oahu surprisingly.

Those situations were great for me. I got to go on a date. I feel like I got to practice dating, but nothing ever came out of it and that's okay. And I feel like there's a lot of people that will use it for hookups, which is fine. There are people that are looking for serious relationships, which is great, but there's always like that in between.

There's the pressure from a lot of people where it's like, if you are on the app, you should be looking for a relationship. And for people like myself, that's not feasible. That's not what I'm looking for. I'm looking to see if I make any connections with somebody, even as a friend, because a lot of the time, a lot of the guys that I matched with are not from here.

SHE HAS BEEN VERBALLY ABUSED BY ONLINE DATERS MORE THAN ONCE

So they are looking for people to like hang out with, to make friends, to make connections because they may not know a lot of people here. And so for me, I just feel sometimes there's pressure where it's like, if you don't agree to go on a date with a guy the day that you match with him. I've had guys verbally abused me for matching with him at nine o'clock at night and not agreeing to go meet up with him for a drink at 10:30pm. And then verbally abuse me for not agreeing to go.

And you get into situations like that, where it's like, okay, we're done here. This is not okay. I report you for being abusive. You should not be on the app.

And then there are the guys where you'll talk to them for a few days and everything is great.

I have recommended, "Hey, let's go grab a drink." And then they completely freak out on me. They're like, "I just got out of the serious relationship. I'm not looking for anything." I was like "I said, let's go get a drink." I didn't say let's get married. Let's be in a relationship. I said, let's go get a drink so we can decide if we want to continue talking, or if we should just end this right now and be good with it.

And so you get a really big variety of men online on these dating apps and you really never know what you're going to get. Unfortunately, there's just so much going on all the time and it's, it takes a while to figure out like, okay, what am I looking for?

How am I going to deal with these situations? Because they have no problem unfortunately, verbally abusing women that have no interest in them. And you have to be strong enough to just be like, okay, this is not happening. This is not okay. I'm going to block you. We're done here. And they really try to come for your self esteem.

HANDLING REJECTION IS DIFFICULT, AND YOU NEED TO BE PREPARED FOR WHAT MIGHT RESULT

And so putting yourself online already is a very vulnerable position. So to have somebody that could potentially come back at you and do that to you can be really hard, but you have to remember that these people are online. They're trying to be vulnerable as well, but maybe they just don't have the capacity of being able to handle rejection.

And that's a big problem with online dating too. It's like when you're online, you have to acknowledge that there is a chance that you will be rejected. And I feel like a lot of people go on thinking that they won't be rejected and that they will be the one doing the rejecting. And you need to be prepared for that.

But also you need to move on and deal with your rejection offline and not take it out on the person that is rejecting you and going through this.

Malika:
Well, that stat, right? That he gave. Rejection rate for men.

Anonymous dater:
Absolutely. I know a lot of the time, I mean, I'm not someone that swipes right very often. Physically, I know what I'm looking for. I mean, I'm a tall girl, so my preference is for taller men. Which can be very hard to find, but it also comes with, there are so many men, so many men on dating apps and their profiles are questionable.

I have never seen so many butts in my life in profile pictures and it's, for me, I would never, never swipe right on somebody that has his full butt out in his profile picture.

And so it's like, what you put out there is what's getting people to swipe right on your profile. And I'm sorry, but that's not a way to get somebody… that's asking for people to reject you and it starts with your profile. It really does. And I, of all people, know how hard it can be to find things that are interesting about yourself to put on your profile without giving too much information away, because essentially you're either being accepted or rejected, usually within five seconds, when it comes to your profile. And with a lot of men they will use inappropriate photos for their profiles. It will be really bad selfies. A lot of them wear sunglasses and every single photo that they have on their profile, they're making, they're putting themselves out there to be rejected.

And it's like, you're not putting your best self out there for somebody that would actually maybe be interested in you if you had a better picture and just a little more information on your profile. I feel like that stat that he gave us was much higher than I thought it would be, but there are reasons behind it.

And a lot of those reasons come from the structure of their profile and what they have, or have not put in their profile.

Malika:
Have you seen strategic misrepresentation?

Anonymous dater:
I personally haven't with any of the guys that I have connected with, besides them having a secret wife or girlfriend.

Which I have found out about because before I decide to go on a date I'll use whatever information they have on their profile to try and find out more information or I'll ask them straight up. I'll be like, do you have a wife? Do you have a girlfriend? Is there somebody that believes that they are in a relationship with you?

And quite a few after I had invested some time I have found out that they in fact have a significant other, but other than that, like when it comes to height or their jobs or what they look like, I haven't really had any problems. Which is actually really great.

HER REACTION TO WHAT SHE LEARNED IN EPISODE 13 FROM DR. JEFFREY A. HALL

Malika:
Yeah. Oh my gosh. So much there. Wow. Was there anything in what Dr. Hall, when you listened to that, that you were like, no, that's not my experience or, oh my gosh. Yes.

Anonymous dater:
I mean the whole thing I was like, have you been in my mind? Have you gone on this journey with me through online dating? Because a lot of it, I was like, oh yeah, no, that's dead on. Especially when he was talking about when it comes to creating your profile and you want to put enough information out there so that the person swiping feels like you are a real person, but at the same time, you don't want to put enough out there where it's like, they feel like they know everything about you.

And so there's no getting to know you more. For me to keep myself safe, I describe things of like things that I like, I will use like a star wars quote, or like a reference to star wars, but it's like, okay, I liked star wars, so we can make a connection over that even if it's like in your opening message, who's your favorite Jedi or whatever.

I'm just using it as an example. But I try to keep it vague enough where I feel safe, but also give them enough information where he could feel like we could maybe make a connection on some level. I mentioned that I am a small business owner, but I don't mention what I do. And so I get what he's saying is about putting out enough information where the person feels like you are a genuine person. You are who you say you are, but my safety is always number one.

I did want to tell you, when you guys were talking about ghosting and you said, you know, sometimes it's easier to just cut off communication, because they'll, they'll misinterpret you doing a light rejection, they're always like, oh, what can I change? What can I do to make this better? You were on it. Because that is completely true.

And it's actually gotten worse because people are so desperate for relationships and connections and stuff like that, they're like, well, how can I change? And it's like, no, it's not about you changing. You need to stay who you are. But who you are is not right for me. But it will be right for someone else.

And I saw your original post on Facebook, asking for people with their experiences. And there were some comments on there that I saw. For me personally, I was like, this is why first of all you're single. Second of all, why you're being rejected. And there's a culture of that now. And I actually just watched a YouTube video about it the other day, and they're called "Pick me" boys. And unfortunately it's turned into a thing now where it's like, well, I'm, it's pick me boys and unfortunately also incels, which have come up a lot, which is something that women have to be careful of.

PICK ME BOYS AND INCELS

Malika: What is that?

Anonymous dater:
They're called incels but they're involuntary celibate.. So they want girlfriends. They are not happy about being celibate, but they've faced rejection a lot.

And a lot of these cases, these men are misogynists and they see women as objects.

A lot of them would be described as nice guys and being nice is like the most basic thing that you can be.

It's like the default. Everybody's nice. There is no individuality in that. And, a lot of these pick me boys and incels, are these "nice guys." Where you think they're really nice, you think they're really polite, but really they, in a lot of cases, they hate women because of how much rejection that they have experienced.

And because they tend to not be like super masculine men that women would normally go for which in this day and age, that's not the norm anymore. There are still women that want a tall masculine man with muscles. You know, they want an alpha male. And in most cases, these are not alpha males.

And so it's created this culture of... you should date me because I'm a nice guy, but if you reject me, I am going to call you every name in the book, maybe even threaten you. And I personally have been seeing quite a bit of that online in a lot of situations, unfortunately. I saw some of that on your posts.

And even though it may not go that far, it's still part of that culture that is really predominant now, and unfortunately is growing quite a bit. And that is really dangerous for women, but we are getting into that point with a lot of these dating apps of like, you have to go through the nice guys to try and figure out if they are a genuinely nice person and that's part of their personality, or if it's something that they're putting out there to try and get to try and get dates, and it comes off really disingenuous and it's not really who they are. And trying to figure that out is like another level of dating, unfortunately.

Malika:
Well, that's why a lot of people kind of describe it in, in the Facebook post a lot of people said it too. People describe it as "work."

Anonymous dater:
Yes, it absolutely is work. There's a very fine line between being a genuine person and like between being a genuine person and then being the person that you want other people to think that you are.

Or what you think they want you to be, that can be hard and it is work, but once it comes to creating your profile, if you put all of the work in at the beginning to create a great profile, it's done, you don't have to do it again for awhile, unless you feel like there's something that needs to be added to that.

But it's definitely work. There's no way to get around that. And it can be hard to find things about yourself that you find interesting, but also things about yourself that you like, that you want other people to like. I get that, that can be very difficult.

Malika:
Oh my gosh. I mean, it feels like this topic could go on and on and on, and there's just so many nuances.

Anonymous dater:
Yeah, absolutely. And that's why I've considered a blog doing a blog about it and anonymous blog, or even just like an Instagram, because I have screenshots, but people need to know that they're not alone in this, but also when it comes to men, they need to know what is unacceptable online. And I feel like in a lot of cases, men are not being told what's unacceptable to put online, like full on just dick pics, like they've got clothing on, but maybe it's sheer or they're like pulling their fabric tight over their crotches. And it's like, this is unacceptable. This is not okay. And you can report them, but there's nowhere telling people explicitly what you absolutely should not be putting on your profile. So, I mean, I have screenshots of things that I've experienced.

I've had friends send me screenshots of things that they've experienced.

Malika:
Oh my gosh. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your story. This is a lot. Yeah. This will be interesting to try to find which soundbite I want to use. Maybe it'll become its own episode.

Anonymous dater:
Oh my gosh.